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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Brooking did/does respect the hell out of Phillips.. he followed him to 3 teams. Its also undeniable that Phillips is a defensive genius. How does that prove anything?


How does Jason Witten saying that Jason Garrett is a "great coach" prove that Garrett "commands respect?"

It's the same thing. Over the last 2 years, the team has plenty of talent. Yet, Garrett is 10-10 as a head coach. Is that the record of a "great coach" as Witten suggests? Is that the record of a talented team who has completely bought it to the head coach?


Commanding respect also depends on the Player. Take the Tuna for instance. His record is beyond repute. Yet him and Key went at it hard.

The thing is though, what makes you think players DONT respect Jason?
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Brooking did/does respect the hell out of Phillips.. he followed him to 3 teams. Its also undeniable that Phillips is a defensive genius. How does that prove anything?


How does Jason Witten saying that Jason Garrett is a "great coach" prove that Garrett "commands respect?"

It's the same thing. Over the last 2 years, the team has plenty of talent. Yet, Garrett is 10-10 as a head coach. Is that the record of a "great coach" as Witten suggests? Is that the record of a talented team who has completely bought it to the head coach?


Commanding respect also depends on the Player. Take the Tuna for instance. His record is beyond repute. Yet him and Key went at it hard.

The thing is though, what makes you think players DONT respect Jason?


All I'm saying is that Garrett's personality type does not "command respect." There are few coaches in the NFL that truly command respect. Garrett is not one of them. Frankly, Rob Ryan commands more respect than Jason Garrett. Players can eff up all day long with Garrett and there is little fear of consequences. Felix Jones can suck all day long as a KR without fear of even being benched let alone cut. The OL can suck to the point of the game being dangerous for Romo's life... doesn't matter. None of them play like their livelihoods hang in the balance.

BTW, I assure you Keyshawn Johnson respected the hell out of BP. Key was a BP guy through and through.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
I also wonder if this is an issue, where JG is focusing most of his energies on the offensive side and not interacting enough with the defensive players. This might explain the split personality and lack of identity on the team. The defence is a physical, aggressive bunch while the offence is passive and soft.


Which is where having an actual offensive coordinator would likely benefit Garrett and the team as a whole. I don't know of many successful coaches who held the title of HC and OC/DC.


The Hoodie and McCarthy come to mind, as does Peyton. And Rex Ryan.

But they also come to mind because of the success.

EDIT: OH. And Wade did it too.


Other than New Orleans under Payton, Belichick, McCarthy, and Ryan still have coordinators to help them game plan. In New England, I think Matt Patricia actually calls the defensive plays.

Callahan has the title of "offensive coordinator" but we all know he's the OL guy. He's had zero influence on the playcalling and playbook.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Brooking did/does respect the hell out of Phillips.. he followed him to 3 teams. Its also undeniable that Phillips is a defensive genius. How does that prove anything?


How does Jason Witten saying that Jason Garrett is a "great coach" prove that Garrett "commands respect?"

It's the same thing. Over the last 2 years, the team has plenty of talent. Yet, Garrett is 10-10 as a head coach. Is that the record of a "great coach" as Witten suggests? Is that the record of a talented team who has completely bought it to the head coach?


Commanding respect also depends on the Player. Take the Tuna for instance. His record is beyond repute. Yet him and Key went at it hard.

The thing is though, what makes you think players DONT respect Jason?


All I'm saying is that Garrett's personality type does not "command respect." There are few coaches in the NFL that truly command respect. Garrett is not one of them. Frankly, Rob Ryan commands more respect than Jason Garrett. Players can eff up all day long with Garrett and there is little fear of consequences. Felix Jones can suck all day long as a KR without fear of even being benched let alone cut. The OL can suck to the point of the game being dangerous for Romo's life... doesn't matter. None of them play like their livelihoods hang in the balance.


See. You site these strawmen as your examples, but what about how he dealt with MBIII in house. Does that not give insight that he is not the type to run his mouth and bad mouth an individual or overreact to a situation?

Also - I think we can agree that there are different types of respect. Dungy was hardly a fire and brimstone personality. Where as Cowher was...and his former players have come up and given him a less than positive review.

I think you see respect given the best when you see players fall in line with a system. It's not something that can be measured through the scope of the media.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
I also wonder if this is an issue, where JG is focusing most of his energies on the offensive side and not interacting enough with the defensive players. This might explain the split personality and lack of identity on the team. The defence is a physical, aggressive bunch while the offence is passive and soft.


Which is where having an actual offensive coordinator would likely benefit Garrett and the team as a whole. I don't know of many successful coaches who held the title of HC and OC/DC.


The Hoodie and McCarthy come to mind, as does Peyton. And Rex Ryan.

But they also come to mind because of the success.

EDIT: OH. And Wade did it too.


Other than New Orleans under Payton, Belichick, McCarthy, and Ryan still have coordinators to help them game plan. In New England, I think Matt Patricia actually calls the defensive plays.

Callahan has the title of "offensive coordinator" but we all know he's the OL guy. He's had zero influence on the playcalling and playbook.


2 or three seasons back the Hoodie called and game-planned all the D plays. Wade had a DC for a season before he fired him so he can focus on it.

Not saying it's effective or ideal. I presented two different spectrum. My point was it happens.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Brooking did/does respect the hell out of Phillips.. he followed him to 3 teams. Its also undeniable that Phillips is a defensive genius. How does that prove anything?


How does Jason Witten saying that Jason Garrett is a "great coach" prove that Garrett "commands respect?"

It's the same thing. Over the last 2 years, the team has plenty of talent. Yet, Garrett is 10-10 as a head coach. Is that the record of a "great coach" as Witten suggests? Is that the record of a talented team who has completely bought it to the head coach?


Commanding respect also depends on the Player. Take the Tuna for instance. His record is beyond repute. Yet him and Key went at it hard.

The thing is though, what makes you think players DONT respect Jason?


You got a better chance of seeing Jerry Jone shire a GM than you do of getting Slaam to provide any proof that the players do not respect Jason Garrett.

As for why I feel that Jason Garrett commands respect goes back to training camp last year and then this year's offseason and training camp. After a few years of Camp Cupcake, our guys had gotten used to a whole lot of softness. There was a huge split in the locker room and the entire attitude of the team was down. Wade ran things totally differently than Garrett has been runnning them and it showed, big time.

We all know that Jimmy Johnson ran a tight ship and was very detail oriented. The players new he was the boss. By all accounts, Jason Garrett is as close to that as our team has had since. It's little things that he does like having a coach at every 10 yard line during sprints to make sure guys don't quit early. Stuff like not not playing little mind games and calling players out to the media all the time like Parcells did. Things like holding players accountable if they fail the conditioning test and creating more competetion for roster spots are things a lot of our veteran players have not had under previous coaches. It's those types of things that I think make our players respect our HC.

No, I am not naive enough to think that every single player respects Garrett. I'm sure there are a few who are not happy with the way he runs things. But, I would bet that the majority of them do have a lot of respect for him. Until Slam, or anyone else, can provide a link to an article where a player indicates that their is discontent and disrepesct amongst the players towards the HC, then I am sticking with my opinion.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
It's the same thing. Over the last 2 years, the team has plenty of talent. Yet, Garrett is 10-10 as a head coach. Is that the record of a "great coach" as Witten suggests? Is that the record of a talented team who has completely bought it to the head coach?


Through two seasons as a head coach, Tom Landry was 4-20-2. Jimmy Johnson was 8-24. I wonder if fans back then questioned whether the team respected those guys?

Also, you say the team has had plenty of talent. I thought Jerry was a terrible GM? So which is it?

Slam, Jason was given crap to work with. When he took over as the head coach, he had an aging and overrated offensive line he had to rebuild. He had a secondary that was porous and inconsistent. There was some talent at the skill positions, but that was about it. His first draft as a head coach, the staff took an offensive tackle for the first time in Jerry's tenure. They then proceeded to draft the likes of Arkin, Nagy and picked up Kowalski in free agency.

His second year as a head coach, with the secondary in shambles, what did the team do? They signed Brandon Carr and traded up for the second best player on the board in Morris Claiborne. This year, the defense has not been a weakness. Would we all have liked to have seen the offensive line addressed in the draft? Hell yes. But Garrett decided to address the secondary instead. You only have so many resources to work with in a given off-season.

Livings has been a so-so player at left guard, and admittedly Bernadeau has been a abysmal player. You guys were right on that one, congratulations. Penalties have been an issue, and Garrett said before Chicago that the team was going to work on them. If I remember correctly and without looking up the official results, I don't remember a single false start called on the line.

Yes, it is a coaches job to get guys ready for each and every game every single week, but there comes a point where the players have to hold themselves accountable and execute the gameplan. If Dez doesn't drop the ball on one or two of those drives, the momentum swings in our favor and maybe Chicago doesn't generate as much pressure and things swing our way.

Point is, I don't see any evidence to suggest that the team as a whole doesn't respect Garrett. I think given the circumstances prior to his taking over the head coaching job, that he deserves at least one more year and one more off-season to fix the mess he inherited before we start calling for his head.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I think you see respect given the best when you see players fall in line with a system. It's not something that can be measured through the scope of the media.


That's really all you had to say. That's my point to both ht and Matts. They argued that Garrett "commands respect" based on a comment that Witten made to the media. I'm saying talk is cheap and most players will say the right thing. Right now, I don't see a team that has gone "all in" with Jason Garrett or his system. Therefore, I don't see a coach "commanding respect."
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Belichick has called defensive plays for a long time. I think stopped doing this at least 5 or 6 years ago. It's definitely been longer than 2 or 3 years.

The difference between Garrett and other HCs that double as coordinators is personality. Payton, McCarthy, and Ryan are fiery types that are also heavily involved in all aspects of the team. Their teams reflect their personalities and, thus, they have a single identity.

Garrett, though, is more mild mannered - almost too polite. His personality has rubbed on to the offence but the defence has a completely different mindset that reflects Rob Ryan's demeanor.

A person with Garrett's demeanor should just focus on one job - that being the head coach where he can observe and intervene where needed. Kind of like Tony Dungy, who allowed his coordinators to coach but he added his input and knew every detail about the playbooks. As such, he became a great game manager. He also had a knack for relating to every player, and his players played hard for him every game.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
I don't think Belichick has called defensive plays for a long time. I think stopped doing this at least 5 or 6 years ago. It's definitely been longer than 2 or 3 years.



Even if we accept your premise, 5 or 6 years ago the Hoodie was still considered successful.

My commentary wasn't that it's okay for Redball to do it. It was in response to LR saying that coaches DO do it. Take a deep breath TSSS.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I think you see respect given the best when you see players fall in line with a system. It's not something that can be measured through the scope of the media.


That's really all you had to say. That's my point to both ht and Matts. They argued that Garrett "commands respect" based on a comment that Witten made to the media. I'm saying talk is cheap and most players will say the right thing. Right now, I don't see a team that has gone "all in" with Jason Garrett or his system. Therefore, I don't see a coach "commanding respect."


Their arguments sprouted based on your assertion, though.

I don't think there is a way to conclusively say one way or another at this point. I happen to think that players are buying in - but that may simply be because I have fallen for Lee and seen the impact he has made.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
It's the same thing. Over the last 2 years, the team has plenty of talent. Yet, Garrett is 10-10 as a head coach. Is that the record of a "great coach" as Witten suggests? Is that the record of a talented team who has completely bought it to the head coach?


Through two seasons as a head coach, Tom Landry was 4-20-2. Jimmy Johnson was 8-24. I wonder if fans back then questioned whether the team respected those guys?

Also, you say the team has had plenty of talent. I thought Jerry was a terrible GM? So which is it?

Slam, Jason was given crap to work with. When he took over as the head coach, he had an aging and overrated offensive line he had to rebuild. He had a secondary that was porous and inconsistent. There was some talent at the skill positions, but that was about it. His first draft as a head coach, the staff took an offensive tackle for the first time in Jerry's tenure. They then proceeded to draft the likes of Arkin, Nagy and picked up Kowalski in free agency.

His second year as a head coach, with the secondary in shambles, what did the team do? They signed Brandon Carr and traded up for the second best player on the board in Morris Claiborne. This year, the defense has not been a weakness. Would we all have liked to have seen the offensive line addressed in the draft? Hell yes. But Garrett decided to address the secondary instead. You only have so many resources to work with in a given off-season.

Livings has been a so-so player at left guard, and admittedly Bernadeau has been a abysmal player. You guys were right on that one, congratulations. Penalties have been an issue, and Garrett said before Chicago that the team was going to work on them. If I remember correctly and without looking up the official results, I don't remember a single false start called on the line.

Yes, it is a coaches job to get guys ready for each and every game every single week, but there comes a point where the players have to hold themselves accountable and execute the gameplan. If Dez doesn't drop the ball on one or two of those drives, the momentum swings in our favor and maybe Chicago doesn't generate as much pressure and things swing our way.

Point is, I don't see any evidence to suggest that the team as a whole doesn't respect Garrett. I think given the circumstances prior to his taking over the head coaching job, that he deserves at least one more year and one more off-season to fix the mess he inherited before we start calling for his head.


No. Jason was not given crap to work with. In 2009, the Cowboys won the NFCE. In 2010, the Cowboys were favored to win the SB by numerous "experts." He did not take over the jaguars. He took over a team with a great top end talent. 1-10 the Cowboys are as good as any football team in the NFL. We're talking HOF pass rusher, great QB, WRs, TE, ILB, NT, physically talented RBs, etc. Tom Landry didn't have anything close to that as an expansion HC. Jimmy Johnson actually got rid of 90% of the veteran players and completely started over. Those teams were built from the ground up. Garrett was given a team that many experts expected to win the SB (and who some experts still believe will win the SB this year).

BTW, I'm not calling for his head. Again, all I'm saying is that there is NOTHING about the Dallas Cowboys performance on the field that leads me to believe that Jason Garrett commands their respect. The players performance is not indicative of a team that has gone "all in" in support of their HC.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
I don't think Belichick has called defensive plays for a long time. I think stopped doing this at least 5 or 6 years ago. It's definitely been longer than 2 or 3 years.



Even if we accept your premise, 5 or 6 years ago the Hoodie was still considered successful.

My commentary wasn't that it's okay for Redball to do it. It was in response to LR saying that coaches DO do it. Take a deep breath TSSS.


Maybe try reading my entire post to understand the points that I was making instead of focusing, as usual, on one particular statement. If you did that, you would realize that I agree with you that some coaches have had success while also be the coordinator, but these guys have certain intangibles that JG does not possess.

And please, don't ever again tell me to take a deep breath.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I think you see respect given the best when you see players fall in line with a system. It's not something that can be measured through the scope of the media.


That's really all you had to say. That's my point to both ht and Matts. They argued that Garrett "commands respect" based on a comment that Witten made to the media. I'm saying talk is cheap and most players will say the right thing. Right now, I don't see a team that has gone "all in" with Jason Garrett or his system. Therefore, I don't see a coach "commanding respect."


Their arguments sprouted based on your assertion, though.

I don't think there is a way to conclusively say one way or another at this point. I happen to think that players are buying in - but that may simply be because I have fallen for Lee and seen the impact he has made.


It's still about the reading comprehension then, isn't it? Go back and read what actually happened. ht made a comment that Jason Garrett commands respect from the players. All I said was, "I'd love to hear how Jason Garrett commands respect."

ht and matts then went to the media to quote Witten who said Garrett is a great coach.

To which, I responded... talk is cheap. This not a team who performs on the field like they have gone all in with Jason Garrett. Then, when ht actually tried to make a feeble attempt to explain how Garrett commands respect, all he could muster up was that Garrett runs a tougher training camp than Wade Phillips. WOW. I'll tell you what... my daughter's JV soccer coach ran a tougher camp than Wade Phillips. That's not really much of an accomplishment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again now... there is NOTHING about the 2011 or 2012 Dallas Cowboys performance on the field that would lead me to believe that Jason Garrett commands repect. The play is far too mistake prone.

And, there was clearly an episode in 2008 where high profile offensive players did not respect Garrett or his game plan at all... and it literally destroyed the season to the point that the 2008 season was voted as a top 10 collapse all time by NFL network.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
I don't think Belichick has called defensive plays for a long time. I think stopped doing this at least 5 or 6 years ago. It's definitely been longer than 2 or 3 years.



Even if we accept your premise, 5 or 6 years ago the Hoodie was still considered successful.

My commentary wasn't that it's okay for Redball to do it. It was in response to LR saying that coaches DO do it. Take a deep breath TSSS.


Maybe try reading my entire post to understand the points that I was making instead of focusing, as usual, on one particular statement. If you did that, you would realize that I agree with you that some coaches have had success while also be the coordinator, but these guys have certain intangibles that JG does not possess.

And please, don't ever again tell me to take a deep breath.




Which is why I provided more than just successful coaches who have done it. I don't even think Wade is a good example either - since I don't think anyone here would argue that Wade isn't an exceptional DC.

I don't know of anyone who has considered Redball to be anywhere close to being a good OC. Now, of course there is also the conjunctions that Payton failed as an OC here as well, and yet has excelled in NO (and yes, a large part of that blame falls on the Tuna). But the same holds true for Zimmer. He has been fantastic for Cincy, and mediocre for us with his smoke and mirrors defense.

Dallas has become a very strange place for coaches.
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