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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
The Packers went 15-1 with a terrible Defense last year. Without Rogers they would have been 8-8. Brady carried his team to the Super Bowl last year and the D was a joke.

Warner took his Rams to the big game with an awful Defense. Manning's Defenses have been average with some plus players. They had Freeney, Bob Sanders, and Mathis. When you have a Manning that could points on the board at will it forces the opposition to scrap their ball control plans to keep Peyton off the field and they are forced to throw. They get pressure from Freeney and Mathis which forces the QB in to forcing throws. His defense was never great.

Eli had great pass rushers too, but the defense was never elite. I love how you guys want to compare our rebuild to Super Bowl winning QB's/teams. We need to have a winning season, a play-off season, then worry about getting back to the super bowl. Even with the best defense in the league, Carson Palmer would not lead this team to the Super Bowl.


call me old school but i still believe defense win championships.
cp>>>>dilfer, brad johnson etc (SB winning qbs)


Exception, not the rule. You can 2 QBs who won w/ great defenses. You can name countless Superbowl winners and playoff contenders who had a great QB.

The Bucs and Ravens defenses were insane top to bottom. It's rare to have that kind of talent across the board on defense. Deep and start studded. 9ers are the closest thing to it since the Bucs.


i hear you but who's the last qb to have a all star type SB performance and win?

arod? steve young? maybe
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
The Packers went 15-1 with a terrible Defense last year. Without Rogers they would have been 8-8. Brady carried his team to the Super Bowl last year and the D was a joke.

Warner took his Rams to the big game with an awful Defense. Manning's Defenses have been average with some plus players. They had Freeney, Bob Sanders, and Mathis. When you have a Manning that could points on the board at will it forces the opposition to scrap their ball control plans to keep Peyton off the field and they are forced to throw. They get pressure from Freeney and Mathis which forces the QB in to forcing throws. His defense was never great.

Eli had great pass rushers too, but the defense was never elite. I love how you guys want to compare our rebuild to Super Bowl winning QB's/teams. We need to have a winning season, a play-off season, then worry about getting back to the super bowl. Even with the best defense in the league, Carson Palmer would not lead this team to the Super Bowl.


call me old school but i still believe defense win championships.
cp>>>>dilfer, brad johnson etc (SB winning qbs)


Exception, not the rule. You can 2 QBs who won w/ great defenses. You can name countless Superbowl winners and playoff contenders who had a great QB.

The Bucs and Ravens defenses were insane top to bottom. It's rare to have that kind of talent across the board on defense. Deep and start studded. 9ers are the closest thing to it since the Bucs.


i hear you but who's the last qb to have a all star type SB performance and win?

arod? steve young? maybe


Don't really understand the question. But Eli, Brady, Peyton have all won Superbowls in the last 10 years. Each a great QB. Rodgers, Big Ben.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15106
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
The Packers went 15-1 with a terrible Defense last year. Without Rogers they would have been 8-8. Brady carried his team to the Super Bowl last year and the D was a joke.

Warner took his Rams to the big game with an awful Defense. Manning's Defenses have been average with some plus players. They had Freeney, Bob Sanders, and Mathis. When you have a Manning that could points on the board at will it forces the opposition to scrap their ball control plans to keep Peyton off the field and they are forced to throw. They get pressure from Freeney and Mathis which forces the QB in to forcing throws. His defense was never great.

Eli had great pass rushers too, but the defense was never elite. I love how you guys want to compare our rebuild to Super Bowl winning QB's/teams. We need to have a winning season, a play-off season, then worry about getting back to the super bowl. Even with the best defense in the league, Carson Palmer would not lead this team to the Super Bowl.


call me old school but i still believe defense win championships.
cp>>>>dilfer, brad johnson etc (SB winning qbs)


Exception, not the rule. You can 2 QBs who won w/ great defenses. You can name countless Superbowl winners and playoff contenders who had a great QB.

The Bucs and Ravens defenses were insane top to bottom. It's rare to have that kind of talent across the board on defense. Deep and start studded. 9ers are the closest thing to it since the Bucs.


i hear you but who's the last qb to have a all star type SB performance and win?

arod? steve young? maybe


Don't really understand the question. But Eli, Brady, Peyton have all won Superbowls in the last 10 years. Each a great QB. Rodgers, Big Ben.


im saying in SB's usually the great qb's have sub par games leaving it up to the defense to bring home the ring. its rare for a qb to have a great game in the SB and carry the team to victory and defense usually is the deciding factor not whose behind center. defense won those games not the qb imo.

brees- sub par SB defense bailed him out
peyton- same
brady- same x 2
eli- same

only qb's i can remember having a great sb game and leading the team to victory was steve young and arod.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
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oakdb36


Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 14417
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:

The Bucs and Ravens defenses were insane top to bottom. It's rare to have that kind of talent across the board on defense. Deep and start studded. 9ers are the closest thing to it since the Bucs.


Those teams also never returned to the SB while those with elite QBs remained SB contenders for years and in some cases won another title. What it shows is that the teams built around a great D can have that one magical run where everything falls in place but it's pretty much impossible to replicate. Those built around an elite QB show a lot more consistency throughout the years. And it's pretty logical. You need a lot of players to form a great defense.

So on the subject of QB or defensive player in this next draft, let's assume whoever we pick is gonna be an elite player at the next level. If we get a defensive player, all it will bring us is one elite defender without any certainties regarding the results we'll get from it. If we get a QB, it makes us very likely playoff contenders for 10 years.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15106
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:

The Bucs and Ravens defenses were insane top to bottom. It's rare to have that kind of talent across the board on defense. Deep and start studded. 9ers are the closest thing to it since the Bucs.


Those teams also never returned to the SB while those with elite QBs remained SB contenders for years and in some cases won another title. What it shows is that the teams built around a great D can have that one magical run where everything falls in place but it's pretty much impossible to replicate. Those built around an elite QB show a lot more consistency throughout the years. And it's pretty logical. You need a lot of players to form a great defense.

So on the subject of QB or defensive player in this next draft, let's assume whoever we pick is gonna be an elite player at the next level. If we get a defensive player, all it will bring us is one elite defender without any certainties regarding the results we'll get from it. If we get a QB, it makes us very likely playoff contenders for 10 years.


-does a SB ring make a qb elite?
-imo its pretty much impossible to replicate a SB run despite having a elite qb or not. recent multiple SB winning qb's have great defenses to lead them on magical runs (pitt, giants)
-after brady's defensive all star team left he hasnt won another ring


interesting 2012 playoff teams stat:
Quote:
Five of the six NFC teams had offenses that finished in the top 10 in yards, but only San Francisco has a top-10 defense.

Four of the six AFC teams have top-10 defenses, but only New England has an offense in the top 10.

What's more, every team except Denver ranks in the top 10 in either offense or defense, but none in both.


so i guess maybe it can go either way.
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15106
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/01/20/does-defense-really-win-championships/

google is a hell of a drug Cool

verdict= stalemate
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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oakdb36


Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 14417
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-does a SB ring make a qb elite?
-imo its pretty much impossible to replicate a SB run despite having a elite qb or not. recent multiple SB winning qb's have great defenses to lead them on magical runs (pitt, giants)
-after brady's defensive all star team left he hasnt won another ring



No.

In recent history, the Rams went to 2 SBs, the Pats won 3 SBs, the Colts went to 2 SBs, The Steelers went to 3 SBs, the Giants won 2 SBs. The fact they all have an elite QB wasn't enough and they obviously needed help from the rest of their team but teams like the Bucs, the Ravens or even the 85 Bears couldn't sustain their success for long despite having some historically great defenses and they never returned to a SB. I see some kind of pattern there.

He still went to 2 more SBs and has been to the playoffs every single year. He's actually the perfect example for my point since he's giving his team a shot every single year.

No player is going to win the SB alone but with an elite QB, you're half way there.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3760
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
The Packers went 15-1 with a terrible Defense last year. Without Rogers they would have been 8-8. Brady carried his team to the Super Bowl last year and the D was a joke.

Warner took his Rams to the big game with an awful Defense. Manning's Defenses have been average with some plus players. They had Freeney, Bob Sanders, and Mathis. When you have a Manning that could points on the board at will it forces the opposition to scrap their ball control plans to keep Peyton off the field and they are forced to throw. They get pressure from Freeney and Mathis which forces the QB in to forcing throws. His defense was never great.

Eli had great pass rushers too, but the defense was never elite. I love how you guys want to compare our rebuild to Super Bowl winning QB's/teams. We need to have a winning season, a play-off season, then worry about getting back to the super bowl. Even with the best defense in the league, Carson Palmer would not lead this team to the Super Bowl.


call me old school but i still believe defense win championships.
cp>>>>dilfer, brad johnson etc (SB winning qbs)


Exception, not the rule. You can 2 QBs who won w/ great defenses. You can name countless Superbowl winners and playoff contenders who had a great QB.

The Bucs and Ravens defenses were insane top to bottom. It's rare to have that kind of talent across the board on defense. Deep and start studded. 9ers are the closest thing to it since the Bucs.


i hear you but who's the last qb to have a all star type SB performance and win?

arod? steve young? maybe


Don't really understand the question. But Eli, Brady, Peyton have all won Superbowls in the last 10 years. Each a great QB. Rodgers, Big Ben.


im saying in SB's usually the great qb's have sub par games leaving it up to the defense to bring home the ring. its rare for a qb to have a great game in the SB and carry the team to victory and defense usually is the deciding factor not whose behind center. defense won those games not the qb imo.

brees- sub par SB defense bailed him out
peyton- same
brady- same x 2
eli- same

only qb's i can remember having a great sb game and leading the team to victory was steve young and arod.


Teams that win a SB all have a running game.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-does a SB ring make a qb elite?
-imo its pretty much impossible to replicate a SB run despite having a elite qb or not. recent multiple SB winning qb's have great defenses to lead them on magical runs (pitt, giants)
-after brady's defensive all star team left he hasnt won another ring



No.

In recent history, the Rams went to 2 SBs, the Pats won 3 SBs, the Colts went to 2 SBs, The Steelers went to 3 SBs, the Giants won 2 SBs. The fact they all have an elite QB wasn't enough and they obviously needed help from the rest of their team but teams like the Bucs, the Ravens or even the 85 Bears couldn't sustain their success for long despite having some historically great defenses and they never returned to a SB. I see some kind of pattern there.

He still went to 2 more SBs and has been to the playoffs every single year. He's actually the perfect example for my point since he's giving his team a shot every single year.

No player is going to win the SB alone but with an elite QB, you're half way there.


half full vrs half empty Laughing

i hear you. there are arguments for both sides.
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
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CrashMan510


Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 4594
Location: Bay Area
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watching the sc-utah game

Star Lotulelei is a BEAST
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star Lotulelei and Jarvis Jones are the two defenders who have jumped off the screen every-time I have watched them play. Would love either of them on our ball club.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Teams that win a SB all have a running game.




2011 Giants- 32nd ranked rush offense
2010 Packers- 24th ranked rush offense
2008 Steelers- 23rd ranked rush offense
2006 Colts- 18th ranked rush offense
2003 Patriots- 27th ranked rush offense
2002 Buccaneers- 27th ranked rush offense

Every one of those teams, aside from the Colts (4.0) had less than 4 YPC as well.

Even most of the losing teams since 2002 had rush offenses in the bottom half of the league: Raiders, Eagles, Bears, Cardinals, Colts (2009), Patriots.
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Last edited by ZoomWaffle on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-does a SB ring make a qb elite?
-imo its pretty much impossible to replicate a SB run despite having a elite qb or not. recent multiple SB winning qb's have great defenses to lead them on magical runs (pitt, giants)
-after brady's defensive all star team left he hasnt won another ring



No.

In recent history, the Rams went to 2 SBs, the Pats won 3 SBs, the Colts went to 2 SBs, The Steelers went to 3 SBs, the Giants won 2 SBs. The fact they all have an elite QB wasn't enough and they obviously needed help from the rest of their team but teams like the Bucs, the Ravens or even the 85 Bears couldn't sustain their success for long despite having some historically great defenses and they never returned to a SB. I see some kind of pattern there.

He still went to 2 more SBs and has been to the playoffs every single year. He's actually the perfect example for my point since he's giving his team a shot every single year.

No player is going to win the SB alone but with an elite QB, you're half way there.


half full vrs half empty Laughing

i hear you. there are arguments for both sides.


Agreed. Thats why I say we should end up with a good player either way. If there is an elite signal caller available, we could potentially find our franchise QB. If not, we can go after a top pass rusher and help our defense for the next decade. Either way we end up with one thing that each of our units are lacking.
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we can go either way it seems de or QB. We are in a great position either an elite DE will fall to us or franchise QB. Pop the champagne fellas because we're going places.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Star Lotulelei and Jarvis Jones are the two defenders who have jumped off the screen every-time I have watched them play. Would love either of them on our ball club.


Can't argue with either. Studs.
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