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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 5559
Location: Dublin
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.


agree.
maybe he can do better in a 3-4 but in the 4-3 the mlb has to have sideline to sideline speed and high motors. imo rolo doesnt have that. think about the current great 4-3 mlbs.

pat willis
urlacher
vilma
mayo, ray lewis (to a certain degree)
etc

those guys have range and high motors



No doubt these guys are far better but they are side-sideline players. They don't get asked to go 15 yards down the field to cover the tight end on every play. Urlacher plays in a tampa 2 and sits in the middle of the field where he can look straight ahead and re-act to what the QB is doing. He doesn't have to move his hips and change direction quickly. He attacks the ball when it's in front of him, not when his back is to it. Most of the MLBs do the same, they stay in the middle, read and re-act to the QB.

then again why people expected Rolando to be like Willis or Vilma I'll never know. Simply looking at their combine should have told you that was never going to happen.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15105
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.


agree.
maybe he can do better in a 3-4 but in the 4-3 the mlb has to have sideline to sideline speed and high motors. imo rolo doesnt have that. think about the current great 4-3 mlbs.

pat willis
urlacher
vilma
mayo, ray lewis (to a certain degree)
etc

those guys have range and high motors



No doubt these guys are far better but they are side-sideline players. They don't get asked to go 15 yards down the field to cover the tight end on every play. Urlacher plays in a tampa 2 and sits in the middle of the field where he can look straight ahead and re-act to what the QB is doing. He doesn't have to move his hips and change direction quickly. He attacks the ball when it's in front of him, not when his back is to it. Most of the MLBs do the same, they stay in the middle, read and re-act to the QB.

then again why people expected Rolando to be like Willis or Vilma I'll never know. Simply looking at their combine should have told you that was never going to happen.


ive seen all those guys cover te's and rb's with ease and willis can cover some wr's fwiw

i knew it wouldnt work i just hoped his film study (he was hyped as a study junky) would held him overcome his lack of speed. imo he tackled too high and was too slow to be a 4-3 mlb.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 5559
Location: Dublin
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Raidin wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.


agree.
maybe he can do better in a 3-4 but in the 4-3 the mlb has to have sideline to sideline speed and high motors. imo rolo doesnt have that. think about the current great 4-3 mlbs.

pat willis
urlacher
vilma
mayo, ray lewis (to a certain degree)
etc

those guys have range and high motors



No doubt these guys are far better but they are side-sideline players. They don't get asked to go 15 yards down the field to cover the tight end on every play. Urlacher plays in a tampa 2 and sits in the middle of the field where he can look straight ahead and re-act to what the QB is doing. He doesn't have to move his hips and change direction quickly. He attacks the ball when it's in front of him, not when his back is to it. Most of the MLBs do the same, they stay in the middle, read and re-act to the QB.

then again why people expected Rolando to be like Willis or Vilma I'll never know. Simply looking at their combine should have told you that was never going to happen.


ive seen all those guys cover te's and rb's with ease and willis can cover some wr's fwiw

i knew it wouldnt work i just hoped his film study (he was hyped as a study junky) would held him overcome his lack of speed. imo he tackled too high and was too slow to be a 4-3 mlb.



and I've seen Rolando do it. However those guys don't get asked to do it nearlyr every play. If a guy is faster then you and running down the pitch no amount of film study will make you catch up quicker.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15105
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Raidin wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.


agree.
maybe he can do better in a 3-4 but in the 4-3 the mlb has to have sideline to sideline speed and high motors. imo rolo doesnt have that. think about the current great 4-3 mlbs.

pat willis
urlacher
vilma
mayo, ray lewis (to a certain degree)
etc

those guys have range and high motors



No doubt these guys are far better but they are side-sideline players. They don't get asked to go 15 yards down the field to cover the tight end on every play. Urlacher plays in a tampa 2 and sits in the middle of the field where he can look straight ahead and re-act to what the QB is doing. He doesn't have to move his hips and change direction quickly. He attacks the ball when it's in front of him, not when his back is to it. Most of the MLBs do the same, they stay in the middle, read and re-act to the QB.

then again why people expected Rolando to be like Willis or Vilma I'll never know. Simply looking at their combine should have told you that was never going to happen.


ive seen all those guys cover te's and rb's with ease and willis can cover some wr's fwiw

i knew it wouldnt work i just hoped his film study (he was hyped as a study junky) would held him overcome his lack of speed. imo he tackled too high and was too slow to be a 4-3 mlb.


and I've seen Rolando do it. However those guys don't get asked to do it never every play. If a guy is faster then you and running down the pitch no amount of film study will make you catch up quicker.


disagree with the bold but agree 100% with the rest
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

If you want to blame him for the faults of al Davis then knock yourself out, seems a bit stupid to me though. I wouldn't blame McClain because you thought when we drafted him we'd turned into an elite defense and he'd be the next Ray Lewis, again you seem to be blaming McClain for your lack of football knowledge. I never said he isn't without fault. In our system with the complete lack of talent around I'd agree with that.


So you make excuses for him? He should be in a 3-4, is that what you are suggesting? If that is the case, how will his coverage inability, tackling, etc. be masked? His slow sideline to sideline speed etc?

My football knowledge is just fine. I can see an average player when presented one. I didn't expect McClain to be a star. But I did expect to see some of that talked about leadership from Alabama. I did expect a consistent tackler.

Go to a game. Watch this dudes body language. He's the furtherest thing from a leader you want and expect.




This is a waste of time with you tbh. I wouldn't agree that he has a massive issue with covering or tackling, you disagree obviously. It is what it is. I also don't give much of a toss if he isn't a leader. He's 23, I don't have ridiculous expectations for the guy to come in and be an excellent leader straight away.

Not sure why people expected such a leader from when he was drafted. His personality hasn't changed really.


It's a waste of time, because you have no argument. McClain has been panned by fans, former players and coaches alike. Everyone sees him for what he is.

You're not sure why people expected such a leader when drafted? Seriously? All we heard was how big a leader he was at Alabama. How integral to their success, etc.

I don't care if he is 23. He's not vocal and he isn't leading by example.

Make excuses all you want, everyone else sees it. Expected a lot more out of the pick. Get back to us next year when he's cut and busting out someplace.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He may be 23, and god knows I want him to pan out and be good so badly. Because it means so much for the team if he does.

But let us be straight. He has not been anything remotely exceptional. He's been barely acceptable, if even that.
He's totally inconsistent, and even the film room junkie thing has not translated one bit to any defensive success. You'd think even if his play was lacking the whole film study thing might have hm making great calls or showing great instincts, helping other players be better, putting the defense in better position or bringing greater awareness.. But it hasn't shown up one bit in that way.

He's also absolutely terrible with the media and fans.

And he has some serious off the field issues that occurred while with the Raiders, with which he has dealt (see smiling arrest pic) very poorly.

Of all the facets of a guy's place with a team, he's graded out between C and F with every one of them. No As, not in any single way. Talent, team, leadership, maturity, performance, execution, not any of those have been anywhere near an A.
Jeez, even some role players can manage to be good or great at something. Even useless benchwarmers can manage not to shoot off guns in some guy's ear, and take intervies and sign autographs..

23 or not, he's a total and complete bust so far. You have to be able to see that man...........
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 8255
Location: CA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The worst part about Rolando McClain being such a bad pick was the depth at ILB in the 2010 draft class. Here are the 6 other ILB's that were drafted within the first 3 rounds...

Daryl Washington
Sean Lee
Brandon Spikes
Pat Angerer
Donald Butler
Navorro Bowman

Washington, Lee and Bowman are borderline elite ILB's. Spikes, Angerer and Butler are good as well.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22761
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
The worst part about Rolando McClain being such a bad pick was the depth at ILB in the 2010 draft class. Here are the 6 other ILB's that were drafted within the first 3 rounds...

Daryl Washington
Sean Lee
Brandon Spikes
Pat Angerer
Donald Butler
Navorro Bowman

Washington, Lee and Bowman are borderline elite ILB's. Spikes, Angerer and Butler are good as well.


I was all about Lee in that draft. Dallas stole him. Guy was a sure tackler, high motor player.

That list of names is exactly why I didn't like the idea of draft McClain. There were options in other rounds. A lot of good looking LBs in that class.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 5559
Location: Dublin
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:

It's a waste of time, because you have no argument. McClain has been panned by fans, former players and coaches alike. Everyone sees him for what he is.

You're not sure why people expected such a leader when drafted? Seriously? All we heard was how big a leader he was at Alabama. How integral to their success, etc.

I don't care if he is 23. He's not vocal and he isn't leading by example.

Make excuses all you want, everyone else sees it. Expected a lot more out of the pick. Get back to us next year when he's cut and busting out someplace.



Everyone views a leader differently, it seems your idea of leader is someone who shouts. The fact you complain about him not being vocal shows how poor your knowledge of him was. That's your own fault. McClain was never noted as a vocal leader, he lead by example by working hard off the pitch.

panned by former fans, players and coaches? Well if the creme de la creme of footballing intelligence say it then it must be true. Most Raider fans are like sheep, they get their opinions from someone else. "Oh he can't cover, shots the wrongs gaps, can't tackle, baaa baaa baaa". Laughable really.
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reddevil


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 580
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
The worst part about Rolando McClain being such a bad pick was the depth at ILB in the 2010 draft class. Here are the 6 other ILB's that were drafted within the first 3 rounds...

Daryl Washington
Sean Lee
Brandon Spikes
Pat Angerer
Donald Butler
Navorro Bowman

Washington, Lee and Bowman are borderline elite ILB's. Spikes, Angerer and Butler are good as well.


Wow. That was a strong class. I had, until this season supported Ro. I wanted to give him the chance to do the 'I'm a Raider, I'm gonna start playing in my 3rd year' thing. He was banged up last year and word out of camp was that he was looking slim and ready to go. He even started the season pretty well. Now, I'm with most of you guys. There is just something missing from him. He just seems lacklustre. I mean that in a physical and mental sense. And when you look at the above list, it just hurts that bit more.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:

Everyone views a leader differently, it seems your idea of leader is someone who shouts. The fact you complain about him not being vocal shows how poor your knowledge of him was. That's your own fault. McClain was never noted as a vocal leader, he lead by example by working hard off the pitch.


A leader doesn't have to shout. Yes, lead by example, that's fine. But his example is what? Watch me jog on plays, whiff tackles, blow coverage and stick out like a soar thumb in the middle. Well then well done McClain.

Raidin wrote:
panned by former fans, players and coaches? Well if the creme de la creme of footballing intelligence say it then it must be true. Most Raider fans are like sheep, they get their opinions from someone else. "Oh he can't cover, shots the wrongs gaps, can't tackle, baaa baaa baaa". Laughable really.


What's laughable is he sucks, hard, and you are trying to defend him. You sound like the Jamarcus apologists. Just ignore the facts. No Raiders fans are getting their opinions from someone else. We watch the games and consistently see a liability in the middle against the run and pass. What's laughable is you trying to pretend this guy is anything more than average as a player.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
He may be 23, and god knows I want him to pan out and be good so badly. Because it means so much for the team if he does.

But let us be straight. He has not been anything remotely exceptional. He's been barely acceptable, if even that.
He's totally inconsistent, and even the film room junkie thing has not translated one bit to any defensive success. You'd think even if his play was lacking the whole film study thing might have hm making great calls or showing great instincts, helping other players be better, putting the defense in better position or bringing greater awareness.. But it hasn't shown up one bit in that way.

He's also absolutely terrible with the media and fans.

And he has some serious off the field issues that occurred while with the Raiders, with which he has dealt (see smiling arrest pic) very poorly.

Of all the facets of a guy's place with a team, he's graded out between C and F with every one of them. No As, not in any single way. Talent, team, leadership, maturity, performance, execution, not any of those have been anywhere near an A.
Jeez, even some role players can manage to be good or great at something. Even useless benchwarmers can manage not to shoot off guns in some guy's ear, and take intervies and sign autographs..

23 or not, he's a total and complete bust so far. You have to be able to see that man...........



I don't give a toss if he doesn't like the media or won't autographs tbh, I only care about his firing guys if it leads to a suspension. Whatever else he does in his free time I don't care once it doesn't affect his play.


Pretty sure we have a DC who calls plays, not sure what you expect McClain to do? Ignore the DC and call his own? At the end of the day the defensive players have to execute themselves, they shouldn't need McClain to baby them through everything. Far to often players on this team are out of position, pick up the wrong guy or just seem lost. That's not McClains fault unless he is that player.

It seems some people thought that because we drafted him at number 8 and he was a great "leader" he'd come in here, make sure great Ray Lewis-esque speeches and would then have tommy Kelly playing like Ngata, Philip Wheeler as Terrell Suggs and Mike Huff as Ed Reed. Laughing
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:

Everyone views a leader differently, it seems your idea of leader is someone who shouts. The fact you complain about him not being vocal shows how poor your knowledge of him was. That's your own fault. McClain was never noted as a vocal leader, he lead by example by working hard off the pitch.


A leader doesn't have to shout. Yes, lead by example, that's fine. But his example is what? Watch me jog on plays, whiff tackles, blow coverage and stick out like a soar thumb in the middle. Well then well done McClain.

Raidin wrote:
panned by former fans, players and coaches? Well if the creme de la creme of footballing intelligence say it then it must be true. Most Raider fans are like sheep, they get their opinions from someone else. "Oh he can't cover, shots the wrongs gaps, can't tackle, baaa baaa baaa". Laughable really.


What's laughable is he sucks, hard, and you are trying to defend him. You sound like the Jamarcus apologists. Just ignore the facts. No Raiders fans are getting their opinions from someone else. We watch the games and consistently see a liability in the middle against the run and pass. What's laughable is you trying to pretend this guy is anything more than average as a player.



I'm not ignoring facts. You are giving me none and never do because I can only assume you haven't a clue what you are talking and all simply peddling a popular line, which is what most people are doing. Tell me the plays this season where he has whiffed, been poor in coverage and generally been terrible. I just don't see the massive number that you and everyone else claims.

If you give me a list then I'll look at them realise for myself how wrong I've been and then everything will be dandy. I've also never said he was anything more than average.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5774
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
holyghost wrote:
He may be 23, and god knows I want him to pan out and be good so badly. Because it means so much for the team if he does.

But let us be straight. He has not been anything remotely exceptional. He's been barely acceptable, if even that.
He's totally inconsistent, and even the film room junkie thing has not translated one bit to any defensive success. You'd think even if his play was lacking the whole film study thing might have hm making great calls or showing great instincts, helping other players be better, putting the defense in better position or bringing greater awareness.. But it hasn't shown up one bit in that way.

He's also absolutely terrible with the media and fans.

And he has some serious off the field issues that occurred while with the Raiders, with which he has dealt (see smiling arrest pic) very poorly.

Of all the facets of a guy's place with a team, he's graded out between C and F with every one of them. No As, not in any single way. Talent, team, leadership, maturity, performance, execution, not any of those have been anywhere near an A.
Jeez, even some role players can manage to be good or great at something. Even useless benchwarmers can manage not to shoot off guns in some guy's ear, and take intervies and sign autographs..

23 or not, he's a total and complete bust so far. You have to be able to see that man...........



I don't give a toss if he doesn't like the media or won't autographs tbh, I only care about his firing guys if it leads to a suspension. Whatever else he does in his free time I don't care once it doesn't affect his play.


Pretty sure we have a DC who calls plays, not sure what you expect McClain to do? Ignore the DC and call his own? At the end of the day the defensive players have to execute themselves, they shouldn't need McClain to baby them through everything. Far to often players on this team are out of position, pick up the wrong guy or just seem lost. That's not McClains fault unless he is that player.

It seems some people thought that because we drafted him at number 8 and he was a great "leader" he'd come in here, make sure great Ray Lewis-esque speeches and would then have tommy Kelly playing like Ngata, Philip Wheeler as Terrell Suggs and Mike Huff as Ed Reed. Laughing


My only point about the media, fans, off-field, and reads was that he doesn't do any of them?!
None of them. One facet done well would be a ray of hope to cling to.

And yeah, the DC calls the plays. But I don't remember the guy making any good reads even, or adjustments. Sometimes it looks like he is, but the result is non existent. Isn't that what was talked about with this guy from day one, with all that film study crap? That he would be some sort of advantage in the middle, when all he's turned out to be is a disadvantage in every way a guy can be graded.

I disagree and think that some of this stuff is his fault. He's the MLB and was touted as some great read guy. I expected him to elevate the defense, and was entirely hoping he'd be some sort of Ray Lewis type or at least Willis, or even slightly resemble any top player for that matter. We all hoped that.
Instead he's driftwood out there. Driftwood.

I honestly believe Wheeler would be better in the middle right now, and Wheeler is a journeyman cheap one year guy. That says alot and none good.

I don't want to debate it endlessly with you man, I'm just hoping at least you can admit there isn't much he has actually done well. We all know that.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:

My only point about the media, fans, off-field, and reads was that he doesn't do any of them?!
None of them.

And yeah, the DC calls the plays. But I don't remember the guy making any good reads even, or adjustments. Sometimes it looks like he is, but the result is non existent. Isn't that what was talked about with this guy from day one, with all that film study crap? That he would be some sort of advantage in the middle, when all he's turned out to be is a disadvantage in every way a guy can be graded.

I disagree and think that some of this stuff is his fault. He's the MLB and was touted as some great read guy. I expected him to elevate the defense, and was entirely hoping he'd be some sort of Ray Lewis type or at least Willis, or even slightly resemble any top player for that matter. We all hoped that.
Instead he's driftwood out there. Driftwood.

I don't want to debate it endlessly with you man, I'm just hoping at least you can admit there isn't much he has actually done well. We all know that.



Fair enough. Obviously we expected different things when he was drafted. I always said his play as been average, never claimed it was brilliant but I just don't feel he's been as terrible as people make him out to be.
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