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Raiders need draft Geno Smith, Bray, Or Matt Barkley next.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 23643
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
This article sums it up about his football smarts and the drive he has.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/page/football-121003Maisel/west-virginia-mountaineers-quarterback-geno-smith-focus-solely-football


Is a rookie Geno Smith with our current offensive problems going to be better than Carson Palmer? No. Is he going to improve our pass rush or our secondary? No. Is he a can't miss prospect quarterback prospect? No.

If we use our first round pick on a young developmental quarterback prospect I will lose all faith in our new regime. We need to address our non-existent pass rush and terrible secondary before we bring in a player that's not going to even step on the field for a minimum of one or two years.


I agree w/ this. Palmer >>>> Smith for the short term. There will be QB's in 2014 and 2015 and they will be good, if not better prospects than Smith.


So you rebuild the defense for 2 years, Palmer retires and you draft a rookie QB. Now you have to wait for him to develop 2-3 years. So you are looking at a 4-6 year plan.

Draft the franchise QB in 2013, pair him with the offensive talent in place. Focus FA and the rest of the draft on defense. Continues to build through 2015 and assuming that franchise QB is in place, you are closer to winning in 2015 than starting a rookie QB. Just my take.
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Rolni


Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 2880
Location: Europe
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
This article sums it up about his football smarts and the drive he has.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/page/football-121003Maisel/west-virginia-mountaineers-quarterback-geno-smith-focus-solely-football


Is a rookie Geno Smith with our current offensive problems going to be better than Carson Palmer? No. Is he going to improve our pass rush or our secondary? No. Is he a can't miss prospect quarterback prospect? No.

If we use our first round pick on a young developmental quarterback prospect I will lose all faith in our new regime. We need to address our non-existent pass rush and terrible secondary before we bring in a player that's not going to even step on the field for a minimum of one or two years.


I agree w/ this. Palmer >>>> Smith for the short term. There will be QB's in 2014 and 2015 and they will be good, if not better prospects than Smith.


So you rebuild the defense for 2 years, Palmer retires and you draft a rookie QB. Now you have to wait for him to develop 2-3 years. So you are looking at a 4-6 year plan.

Draft the franchise QB in 2013, pair him with the offensive talent in place. Focus FA and the rest of the draft on defense. Continues to build through 2015 and assuming that franchise QB is in place, you are closer to winning in 2015 than starting a rookie QB. Just my take.


I see what you say, but I would not press the QB draft.

I wanna see BPA early. If there is a playmaker\game changer D player who is overall a better player\prospect I want him ahead of the QB pick.
I know that we need a franchise QB, but we need so much more...
If we continue to build the D and O and draft the QB of the future in 2014 he still can learn a year behind CP if needed or take over an overall better team...
On the other hand hopefully next season we will have a better record, so we might fail to draft the right guy...

Not an easy decision for RM...
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5563
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolni wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
This article sums it up about his football smarts and the drive he has.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/page/football-121003Maisel/west-virginia-mountaineers-quarterback-geno-smith-focus-solely-football


Is a rookie Geno Smith with our current offensive problems going to be better than Carson Palmer? No. Is he going to improve our pass rush or our secondary? No. Is he a can't miss prospect quarterback prospect? No.

If we use our first round pick on a young developmental quarterback prospect I will lose all faith in our new regime. We need to address our non-existent pass rush and terrible secondary before we bring in a player that's not going to even step on the field for a minimum of one or two years.


I agree w/ this. Palmer >>>> Smith for the short term. There will be QB's in 2014 and 2015 and they will be good, if not better prospects than Smith.


So you rebuild the defense for 2 years, Palmer retires and you draft a rookie QB. Now you have to wait for him to develop 2-3 years. So you are looking at a 4-6 year plan.

Draft the franchise QB in 2013, pair him with the offensive talent in place. Focus FA and the rest of the draft on defense. Continues to build through 2015 and assuming that franchise QB is in place, you are closer to winning in 2015 than starting a rookie QB. Just my take.


I see what you say, but I would not press the QB draft.

I wanna see BPA early. If there is a playmaker\game changer D player who is overall a better player\prospect I want him ahead of the QB pick.
I know that we need a franchise QB, but we need so much more...
If we continue to build the D and O and draft the QB of the future in 2014 he still can learn a year behind CP if needed or take over an overall better team...
On the other hand hopefully next season we will have a better record, so we might fail to draft the right guy...

Not an easy decision for RM...


I agree. A franchise QB is pretty much a must if you want to be a consistant contender in this league, but a rookie QB would take time to develop wheras a guy like Jarvis Jones or Mingo could step in right away and change the way our defense plays. On the flip side, if we pass on a QB then we have to wait even longer for our franchise QB. You can look at this as a problem (because it is), but the plus side is we need both positions, so as long as we go BPA between QB and DE we will be doing the right thing.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 13413
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Bo_Spice wrote:
Burgesskills wrote:
This article sums it up about his football smarts and the drive he has.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/page/football-121003Maisel/west-virginia-mountaineers-quarterback-geno-smith-focus-solely-football


Is a rookie Geno Smith with our current offensive problems going to be better than Carson Palmer? No. Is he going to improve our pass rush or our secondary? No. Is he a can't miss prospect quarterback prospect? No.

If we use our first round pick on a young developmental quarterback prospect I will lose all faith in our new regime. We need to address our non-existent pass rush and terrible secondary before we bring in a player that's not going to even step on the field for a minimum of one or two years.


I agree w/ this. Palmer >>>> Smith for the short term. There will be QB's in 2014 and 2015 and they will be good, if not better prospects than Smith.


So you rebuild the defense for 2 years, Palmer retires and you draft a rookie QB. Now you have to wait for him to develop 2-3 years. So you are looking at a 4-6 year plan.

Draft the franchise QB in 2013, pair him with the offensive talent in place. Focus FA and the rest of the draft on defense. Continues to build through 2015 and assuming that franchise QB is in place, you are closer to winning in 2015 than starting a rookie QB. Just my take.


I would prefer BPA regardless of position (except RB, WR, or CB). Not only that, a lot of times these days, the rookies that have came out are seemingly much more polished and don't need that giant window that has been needed in the past. Some do, don't get me wrong but I would just prefer BPA through most rounds.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can win w/ Carson and the way he's playing for another 3 years. He's not making stupid decisions and he's taking care of the ball. Get him some more time and a capable running game and we could pick apart people like no other. Our defense needs a lot of work. We are in shambles but we can work w/ Palmer for more time and then even go after a guy via FA. There's really no NEED to draft a QB.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
We can win w/ Carson and the way he's playing for another 3 years. He's not making stupid decisions and he's taking care of the ball. Get him some more time and a capable running game and we could pick apart people like no other. Our defense needs a lot of work. We are in shambles but we can work w/ Palmer for more time and then even go after a guy via FA. There's really no NEED to draft a QB.


+1

The only reason I could see us going QB is if we are cutting Palmer for salary cap reasons. I really like the idea of one of the stud pass rushers, but BPA at a position of need would be OK with me. If we are picking top-10, it better be someone who can start from day one and be a difference maker shortly thereafter.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With respect, Palmer's inconsistency scares me, one year he's lights out and the next you want to run him out of town. I get this feeling that he's going to be great this year, and we pass on a QB in the draft, and then next year he's tossing up int's like theres no tomorrow. I wish I could trust the guy more but it's way too hard.
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 1461
Location: Wales, UK
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
With respect, Palmer's inconsistency scares me, one year he's lights out and the next you want to run him out of town. I get this feeling that he's going to be great this year, and we pass on a QB in the draft, and then next year he's tossing up int's like theres no tomorrow. I wish I could trust the guy more but it's way too hard.


Seems a bit harsh if you're judging Palmer on last year, the guy was thrown into an impossible position and asked to save our season by carrying the offense with McFadden and Moore out after just 2 weeks with the team and not even knowing the whole playbook!

Palmer has been the very model of consistency this season so far and it looks as though the new look Raiders are aiming to be a conservative, ball control offense, so i highly doubt there will be a rash of gung-ho ariel bombs next season.
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Burgesskills


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are okay with Palmer being okay? It's always, he's not making any mistakes, he's doing okay, he is a game manager right now, he has his moments and there are times he looks like ish. We are 1-3 and you guys point to he makes good decisions, he is average at best. There are 15 QB's I would rather have. I don't fault him for last season at all, he came in off the couch and did decent, but team is going no where this year and will still be rebuilding next. We might have a D in a few years and a stronger line with a 37 year old QB.

He is getting up there and age and obviously we are re-building the whole team. If you don't have a franchise QB in place why not get one to build the team around.

You guys keep talking about how you have to develop a rookie QB for years, have you guys missed the NFL games these past years. Newton, Luck, RG3, rookie QB's who are stepping right in and doing well.

I do agree BPA is the way this regime will and should draft, but it looks as though we are going to be drafting pretty early.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In regards to a franchise QB, when you find that guy it props the team up.

Brady in NE has had some poor talent and defenses around him over the years, but wins. Manning in Indy, winner.

Rodgers is carrying the Packers. Brees has carried NO for years.

That QB can elevate the team. Still need pieces, talent on both sides, but that QB is really important in the NFL.

But BPA is always the best bet.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
We can win w/ Carson and the way he's playing for another 3 years. He's not making stupid decisions and he's taking care of the ball. Get him some more time and a capable running game and we could pick apart people like no other. Our defense needs a lot of work. We are in shambles but we can work w/ Palmer for more time and then even go after a guy via FA. There's really no NEED to draft a QB.


Win what? Palmer is going to need to be built around like Flacco and Ryan is to win. We need a QB to make everyone better not somebody who can win a couple of games if he is in the right situation. Ill be ok with Palmer for 2 or 3 more years if he was making way less in the next 2 or 3 years. But at his price tag, I want a QB in the top 10 at least.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
In regards to a franchise QB, when you find that guy it props the team up.

Brady in NE has had some poor talent and defenses around him over the years, but wins. Manning in Indy, winner.

Rodgers is carrying the Packers. Brees has carried NO for years.


That QB can elevate the team. Still need pieces, talent on both sides, but that QB is really important in the NFL.

But BPA is always the best bet.


disagree.
peyton had great talent around him offensively and during his super bowl year his defense stepped up major.

rodgers and brees also imo depended on their defense to carry them during their superbowl run. rodgers barely out played the bears rookie qb during the nfc championship and the defense bailed him out. didnt no's defense lead the nfl in turnovers that superbowl year. not to mention the pick six in the SB to seal the win.

iirc didnt brady take over a not to far removed from the playoffs pats team when bledsloe went down.

without defense those guys would be lumped into the marino, moon, jim kelly etc class of qb's
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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This is football, not pussology 101
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
We can win w/ Carson and the way he's playing for another 3 years. He's not making stupid decisions and he's taking care of the ball. Get him some more time and a capable running game and we could pick apart people like no other. Our defense needs a lot of work. We are in shambles but we can work w/ Palmer for more time and then even go after a guy via FA. There's really no NEED to draft a QB.


Win what? Palmer is going to need to be built around like Flacco and Ryan is to win. We need a QB to make everyone better not somebody who can win a couple of games if he is in the right situation. Ill be ok with Palmer for 2 or 3 more years if he was making way less in the next 2 or 3 years. But at his price tag, I want a QB in the top 10 at least.


+1
despite his recent improved play his price tag imo will push him out of oakland. same with big rich and tko.
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
In regards to a franchise QB, when you find that guy it props the team up.

Brady in NE has had some poor talent and defenses around him over the years, but wins. Manning in Indy, winner.

Rodgers is carrying the Packers. Brees has carried NO for years.


That QB can elevate the team. Still need pieces, talent on both sides, but that QB is really important in the NFL.

But BPA is always the best bet.


disagree.
peyton had great talent around him offensively and during his super bowl year his defense stepped up major.

rodgers and brees also imo depended on their defense to carry them during their superbowl run. rodgers barely out played the bears rookie qb during the nfc championship and the defense bailed him out. didnt no's defense lead the nfl in turnovers that superbowl year. not to mention the pick six in the SB to seal the win.

iirc didnt brady take over a not to far removed from the playoffs pats team when bledsloe went down.

without defense those guys would be lumped into the marino, moon, jim kelly etc class of qb's


Every QB you named did carry their teams including the ones you named at the bottom. Jim Kelly is probably the only one who didnt carry his team. It takes help from all aspects to win a Superbowl. But dont get it twist it with out those elite QBs those teams wouldnt have had a shot at a Super bowl. Yeah sure did a receiver make a good play here and there, did a defense get a critical stop here and there, sure they did its a team sport. But those QBs was easily the most important pieces.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
In regards to a franchise QB, when you find that guy it props the team up.

Brady in NE has had some poor talent and defenses around him over the years, but wins. Manning in Indy, winner.

Rodgers is carrying the Packers. Brees has carried NO for years.


That QB can elevate the team. Still need pieces, talent on both sides, but that QB is really important in the NFL.

But BPA is always the best bet.


disagree.
peyton had great talent around him offensively and during his super bowl year his defense stepped up major.

rodgers and brees also imo depended on their defense to carry them during their superbowl run. rodgers barely out played the bears rookie qb during the nfc championship and the defense bailed him out. didnt no's defense lead the nfl in turnovers that superbowl year. not to mention the pick six in the SB to seal the win.

iirc didnt brady take over a not to far removed from the playoffs pats team when bledsloe went down.

without defense those guys would be lumped into the marino, moon, jim kelly etc class of qb's


It's true, even when these guys had great years it was the rest of the team and often the defense stepping up to push them over the top.

It's easily forgot, but it happens all the time. During both of Eli's SBs, it was their defense that elevated in the postseason run ignificantly over what it was before.
And Brady, when the Pats actually won their Super Bowls, had the benefit of what was a fantastic defense. They changed the CB contact rules because of that defense.. Need I list the guys - Asante Samuel, Seymour, Bruschi, Vrabel, Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, and the list goes on..

Now, that said, you DO need that premier QB to even get there. But you need more to win it. So, in the end, yeah.. We need a heck of alot more than we have...
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