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RyanFuller003


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
I look at the way we've played (underwhelming) and the margin of defeat (slim). We haven't played well, but we're average ST play away from potentially being 3-1.

We're also one last-second drive away from being 0-4.

This team has not played well, no matter how you shake it. After our 9-0 streak between the end of 2010 and the first 5 games of 2011, we've been 6-10 in our last 16 contests including the New Orleans game. We've already played three of our "easier" games and have come out with one rather unimpressive win and three rather embarrassing losses. Not blowouts, of course, but aside from the 49ers game, there's no reason the Lions should have been able to beat the Titans and Vikings handily. I still don't buy either of them as discernibly good teams despite Minnesota's 3-1 start or win against the 49ers.

stylish313 wrote:
Mayhew's made a couple of nice moves via trade and F/A, but none since 2009- so when you really look at his resume, he hasn't done much of anything in the form of adding starting caliber talent to our team since the season he arrived. That is beyond disturbing

To be fair, when he came in, this roster got gutted and had almost no talent, so drafting day-one starters wasn't going to be terribly difficult to do (especially now that that draft class has had four years to improve).

There's also Zack Follett, who was a starter before a neck injury derailed his career (it's not like he had durability problems in college that would have indicated this might be a risk) and Jahvid Best, who would be starting if not for the fact that his brain is scrambled (which of course you can freely call an oversight on our part since he did have that problem in college). And many of 2010's draft picks were traded for players, including three starters (Houston, Sims, Corey Williams) and a couple of other guys who have been key contributors at various points (Shaun Hill, Tony Scheffler, Lawrence Jackson). They aren't draft picks per se, but he turned draft picks into contributing players--which is better than drafting a special teamer with your 6th round pick only to have him out of the league in 2-3 years, which is what happens with most of those selections regardless of which team they play for.

Too early to give up hope on Fairley, Titus Young, Willie Young. They've all had their moments.

Is it surprising that none of the 2012 players are contributing yet? Reiff plays a position at which we returned two starters, both of whom were good enough last year, so right away that was an obvious depth selection. Broyles is coming off ACL surgery and he plays at a position where we have a lot of depth (which of course calls into question the wisdom of the pick in the first place). Bentley wasn't supposed to be a day-one starter, but kind of got forced into that role because of Aaron Berry being an idiot. I think the focus this time around was getting some guys in place for when some of our veterans inevitably move on or retire, moreso than getting guys who can contribute right away.
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lizardking28


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
Out of 22 starters on this team, Mayhew has managed to draft 6 of them! And that's on a team that was 0-16 before he arrived Shocked

2009
#1 overall selection Matthew Stafford
#20 overall selection Brandon Pettigrew
#33 overall selection Louis Delmas- who isn't even contributing often due to his injury-prone nature
#76 overall selection Deandre Levy- who may have been Mayhew's best selection to date

2010
#2 overall selection Ndamukong Suh
That is all

2011
#57 overall selection Mikel Leshoure- who's off-season transgressions were an embarrassment, distraction, and probably had some sort of impact that has contributed to the teams current disjointed state.
That is all

2012
Nothing, not even a solid contributor on ST's Confused

Mayhew's made a couple of nice moves via trade and F/A, but none since 2009- so when you really look at his resume, he hasn't done much of anything in the form of adding starting caliber talent to our team since the season he arrived. That is beyond disturbing


If our starting O is 5 OL, TE, QB, RB, 3 WR, then Titus is a Starter.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
Out of 22 starters on this team, Mayhew has managed to draft 6 of them! And that's on a team that was 0-16 before he arrived Shocked

2009
#1 overall selection Matthew Stafford
#20 overall selection Brandon Pettigrew
#33 overall selection Louis Delmas- who isn't even contributing often due to his injury-prone nature
#76 overall selection Deandre Levy- who may have been Mayhew's best selection to date

2010
#2 overall selection Ndamukong Suh
That is all

2011
#57 overall selection Mikel Leshoure- who's off-season transgressions were an embarrassment, distraction, and probably had some sort of impact that has contributed to the teams current disjointed state.
That is all

2012
Nothing, not even a solid contributor on ST's Confused

Mayhew's made a couple of nice moves via trade and F/A, but none since 2009- so when you really look at his resume, he hasn't done much of anything in the form of adding starting caliber talent to our team since the season he arrived. That is beyond disturbing

I think the part underlined and bolded above is completely false. Lets fill in the blanks:

Calvin Johnson - Previous Regime
Nate Burleson - Signed (Mayhew)
Jeff Backus - Previous Regime
Rob Sims - Acquired (Mayhew)
Dominic Raiola - Previous Regime
Stephen Peterman - Previous Regime
Gosder Cherilus - Previous Regime
Tony Scheffler - Acquired (Mayhew)

Cliff Avril - Previous Regime
Corey Williams - Acquired (Mayhew)
Kyle Vanden Bosch - Signed (Mayhew)
Justin Durant - Signed (Mayhew)
Stephen Tulloch - Signed (Mayhew)
Chris Houston - Acquired (Mayhew)
Dwight Bentley - Drafted (Mayhew)


Mayhew added 15 starting-caliber players to this football team since arriving, and that isn't considering Best (injuries). Four of the starters he didn't bring here himself are offensive linemen.

Now, if Mayhew/Schwartz were bad at their jobs, they could start Willie Young over Avril, Hogue over Tulloch, Whitehead over Durant, Green over Houston, Tim Toone over Burleson, Reiff over Backus, Culbreath over Cherilus, and Fairley over Williams, and look to be "good drafters". That's not how it works. Building the best overall roster is what's important, and you can't just look at the number of starters drafted to draw that conclusion.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
Out of 22 starters on this team, Mayhew has managed to draft 6 of them! And that's on a team that was 0-16 before he arrived Shocked

2009
#1 overall selection Matthew Stafford
#20 overall selection Brandon Pettigrew
#33 overall selection Louis Delmas- who isn't even contributing often due to his injury-prone nature
#76 overall selection Deandre Levy- who may have been Mayhew's best selection to date

2010
#2 overall selection Ndamukong Suh
That is all

2011
#57 overall selection Mikel Leshoure- who's off-season transgressions were an embarrassment, distraction, and probably had some sort of impact that has contributed to the teams current disjointed state.
That is all

2012
Nothing, not even a solid contributor on ST's Confused

Mayhew's made a couple of nice moves via trade and F/A, but none since 2009- so when you really look at his resume, he hasn't done much of anything in the form of adding starting caliber talent to our team since the season he arrived. That is beyond disturbing

I think the part underlined and bolded above is completely false. Lets fill in the blanks:

Calvin Johnson - Previous Regime
Nate Burleson - Signed (Mayhew)
Jeff Backus - Previous Regime
Rob Sims - Acquired (Mayhew)
Dominic Raiola - Previous Regime
Stephen Peterman - Previous Regime
Gosder Cherilus - Previous Regime
Tony Scheffler - Acquired (Mayhew)

Cliff Avril - Previous Regime
Corey Williams - Acquired (Mayhew)
Kyle Vanden Bosch - Signed (Mayhew)
Justin Durant - Signed (Mayhew)
Stephen Tulloch - Signed (Mayhew)
Chris Houston - Acquired (Mayhew)
Dwight Bentley - Drafted (Mayhew)


Mayhew added 15 starting-caliber players to this football team since arriving, and that isn't considering Best (injuries). Four of the starters he didn't bring here himself are offensive linemen.

Now, if Mayhew/Schwartz were bad at their jobs, they could start Willie Young over Avril, Hogue over Tulloch, Whitehead over Durant, Green over Houston, Tim Toone over Burleson, Reiff over Backus, Culbreath over Cherilus, and Fairley over Williams, and look to be "good drafters". That's not how it works. Building the best overall roster is what's important, and you can't just look at the number of starters drafted to draw that conclusion.
I was in a rush. Why don't you do a yearly break down of his additions to our staring line-up? I'm sure 80% of his work was done by the off-season after 2009. After that off-season, he's added Tulloch, Durant, Leshoure and Bentley-who hasn't shown one lick of starting potential this season.
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nagahide13


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the loss of Aaron Berry is something that gets overlooked quite a bit. He alone would have made our secondary far, far better... Not that I'm against him being booted at all.

Our biggest problems are secondary, ST and drops. We aren't a great team right now, obviously, but we would be if we could fix those problems. If even one of those problems moved a bit more toward the average we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not defending this team right now, because honestly we kind of suck. I know we suck. But some people are overreacting a wee bit.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagahide13 wrote:
I think the loss of Aaron Berry is something that gets overlooked quite a bit. He alone would have made our secondary far, far better... Not that I'm against him being booted at all.

Our biggest problems are secondary, ST and drops. We aren't a great team right now, obviously, but we would be if we could fix those problems. If even one of those problems moved a bit more toward the average we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not defending this team right now, because honestly we kind of suck. I know we suck. But some people are overreacting a wee bit.
I consider ST's to be a measure of how much quality depth a team has. We know our depth in the secondary stinks, because our starters stink outside of Houston and the injury-prone Delmas.

So when I see us making history with how porous our ST's have been, I wanna get to the root of the problem. Since Schwartz swears it's not his coaches fault, and even went as far as to call out the talent he had for those units during the preseason, then the next logical step to me is to blame the man that put that collection of talent together.

Mayhew knew that Fairley, Leshoure, Titus, Broyles, Reiff, etc., etc., weren't gonna be any help in those areas. Plus he's had the propensity to draft players of the softer variety early, and of the raw variety later. He's been doing this for years, and for years our coverage units have sucked. We're now just witnessing the snowball effect of this mentality.
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nagahide13


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
nagahide13 wrote:
I think the loss of Aaron Berry is something that gets overlooked quite a bit. He alone would have made our secondary far, far better... Not that I'm against him being booted at all.

Our biggest problems are secondary, ST and drops. We aren't a great team right now, obviously, but we would be if we could fix those problems. If even one of those problems moved a bit more toward the average we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not defending this team right now, because honestly we kind of suck. I know we suck. But some people are overreacting a wee bit.
I consider ST's to be a measure of how much quality depth a team has. We know our depth in the secondary stinks, because our starters stink outside of Houston and the injury-prone Delmas.

So when I see us making history with how porous our ST's have been, I wanna get to the root of the problem. Since Schwartz swears it's not his coaches fault, and even went as far as to call out the talent he had for those units during the preseason, then the next logical step to me is to blame the man that put that collection of talent together.

Mayhew knew that Fairley, Leshoure, Titus, Broyles, Reiff, etc., etc., weren't gonna be any help in those areas. Plus he's had the propensity to draft players of the softer variety early, and of the raw variety later. He's been doing this for years, and for years our coverage units have sucked. We're now just witnessing the snowball effect of this mentality.


I definitely see that as well. I'm just hoping that we're building a solid future with those early picks right now. Most of our skill positions are set at this point. I still hope we get quality O-line and secondary through the draft in the coming years, but we're so full of talent at most of the "key" positions now that I think we'll start seeing a better influx of depth.

Zach's career ending injury threw a big wrench into our ST. Travis Lewis's injury did too, but obviously to a lesser and less permanent degree. For the most part, I'm a believer that in football you do the best you can with what you have... Which is why coaches like Jim Harbaugh are great and coaches like Crossman are terrible.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
Out of 22 starters on this team, Mayhew has managed to draft 6 of them! And that's on a team that was 0-16 before he arrived Shocked

2009
#1 overall selection Matthew Stafford
#20 overall selection Brandon Pettigrew
#33 overall selection Louis Delmas- who isn't even contributing often due to his injury-prone nature
#76 overall selection Deandre Levy- who may have been Mayhew's best selection to date

2010
#2 overall selection Ndamukong Suh
That is all

2011
#57 overall selection Mikel Leshoure- who's off-season transgressions were an embarrassment, distraction, and probably had some sort of impact that has contributed to the teams current disjointed state.
That is all

2012
Nothing, not even a solid contributor on ST's Confused

Mayhew's made a couple of nice moves via trade and F/A, but none since 2009- so when you really look at his resume, he hasn't done much of anything in the form of adding starting caliber talent to our team since the season he arrived. That is beyond disturbing

I think the part underlined and bolded above is completely false. Lets fill in the blanks:

Calvin Johnson - Previous Regime
Nate Burleson - Signed (Mayhew)
Jeff Backus - Previous Regime
Rob Sims - Acquired (Mayhew)
Dominic Raiola - Previous Regime
Stephen Peterman - Previous Regime
Gosder Cherilus - Previous Regime
Tony Scheffler - Acquired (Mayhew)

Cliff Avril - Previous Regime
Corey Williams - Acquired (Mayhew)
Kyle Vanden Bosch - Signed (Mayhew)
Justin Durant - Signed (Mayhew)
Stephen Tulloch - Signed (Mayhew)
Chris Houston - Acquired (Mayhew)
Dwight Bentley - Drafted (Mayhew)


Mayhew added 15 starting-caliber players to this football team since arriving, and that isn't considering Best (injuries). Four of the starters he didn't bring here himself are offensive linemen.

Now, if Mayhew/Schwartz were bad at their jobs, they could start Willie Young over Avril, Hogue over Tulloch, Whitehead over Durant, Green over Houston, Tim Toone over Burleson, Reiff over Backus, Culbreath over Cherilus, and Fairley over Williams, and look to be "good drafters". That's not how it works. Building the best overall roster is what's important, and you can't just look at the number of starters drafted to draw that conclusion.
I was in a rush. Why don't you do a yearly break down of his additions to our staring line-up? I'm sure 80% of his work was done by the off-season after 2009. After that off-season, he's added Tulloch, Durant, Leshoure and Bentley-who hasn't shown one lick of starting potential this season.

I understand completely about being in a rush.

Point taken about the yearly breakdown, but wouldn't that possibly mean that he's almost too good at acquiring starting-caliber players, while also pointing to how awful the roster was that he inherited?

I'm not sure. I'm not really concerned when he acquired the talent, just that he did. Looking at the number of quality players he brought to this team, I can't criticize his talent acquisition ability.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When looking at the team stats it made me think of this thread. Here are some team ranks that are just mind blowing given our record.

Offensive:
Total - 412 ypg. 5th best in the league.
Passing - 322 ypg. - 1st in the league.
Rushing - 90 ypg. - 22nd in the league.


Defensive:
Rushing - 102.8 ypg. 16th in the league, 1.8 yards a game away from being 13th.
Passing - 213 ypg. 9th in the league and this is with the 400 we gave up to Tennessee. In our other 3 games we have given up less than 150 per game.
Total - 315.8 ypg. 10th in the league

It is sad that we are that high on both ends of the spectrum and 1-3. I know a lot is due to Special teams but we are 5th in offense yet 14th in scoring (and again this includes a crazy 14 points in 18 seconds against Tenn. which is a little flukey to say the least). We are moving the ball but not getting into the endzone. And we are playing solid D but not creating turnovers (1 of 2 teams without an INT and only 3 FF). Its just mind boggling to see these numbers though, and then see our record.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
When looking at the team stats it made me think of this thread. Here are some team ranks that are just mind blowing given our record.

Offensive:
Total - 412 ypg. 5th best in the league.
Passing - 322 ypg. - 1st in the league.
Rushing - 90 ypg. - 22nd in the league.


Defensive:
Rushing - 102.8 ypg. 16th in the league, 1.8 yards a game away from being 13th.
Passing - 213 ypg. 9th in the league and this is with the 400 we gave up to Tennessee. In our other 3 games we have given up less than 150 per game.
Total - 315.8 ypg. 10th in the league

It is sad that we are that high on both ends of the spectrum and 1-3. I know a lot is due to Special teams but we are 5th in offense yet 14th in scoring (and again this includes a crazy 14 points in 18 seconds against Tenn. which is a little flukey to say the least). We are moving the ball but not getting into the endzone. And we are playing solid D but not creating turnovers (1 of 2 teams without an INT and only 3 FF). Its just mind boggling to see these numbers though, and then see our record.

It's absolutely two of the factors you mentioned: our inability to turn 3 into 7, and our failures on ST. Those two trends are hard to overcome.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
When looking at the team stats it made me think of this thread. Here are some team ranks that are just mind blowing given our record.

Offensive:
Total - 412 ypg. 5th best in the league.
Passing - 322 ypg. - 1st in the league.
Rushing - 90 ypg. - 22nd in the league.


Defensive:
Rushing - 102.8 ypg. 16th in the league, 1.8 yards a game away from being 13th.
Passing - 213 ypg. 9th in the league and this is with the 400 we gave up to Tennessee. In our other 3 games we have given up less than 150 per game.
Total - 315.8 ypg. 10th in the league

It is sad that we are that high on both ends of the spectrum and 1-3. I know a lot is due to Special teams but we are 5th in offense yet 14th in scoring (and again this includes a crazy 14 points in 18 seconds against Tenn. which is a little flukey to say the least). We are moving the ball but not getting into the endzone. And we are playing solid D but not creating turnovers (1 of 2 teams without an INT and only 3 FF). Its just mind boggling to see these numbers though, and then see our record.

It's absolutely two of the factors you mentioned: our inability to turn 3 into 7, and our failures on ST. Those two trends are hard to overcome.
Can't sleep on his third point either- it is extremely important to this team's success to force turnovers, and that is why Avrils production from last season can't be underappreciated, nor easily replicated.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
When looking at the team stats it made me think of this thread. Here are some team ranks that are just mind blowing given our record.

Offensive:
Total - 412 ypg. 5th best in the league.
Passing - 322 ypg. - 1st in the league.
Rushing - 90 ypg. - 22nd in the league.


Defensive:
Rushing - 102.8 ypg. 16th in the league, 1.8 yards a game away from being 13th.
Passing - 213 ypg. 9th in the league and this is with the 400 we gave up to Tennessee. In our other 3 games we have given up less than 150 per game.
Total - 315.8 ypg. 10th in the league

It is sad that we are that high on both ends of the spectrum and 1-3. I know a lot is due to Special teams but we are 5th in offense yet 14th in scoring (and again this includes a crazy 14 points in 18 seconds against Tenn. which is a little flukey to say the least). We are moving the ball but not getting into the endzone. And we are playing solid D but not creating turnovers (1 of 2 teams without an INT and only 3 FF). Its just mind boggling to see these numbers though, and then see our record.


All good points slim.

On offence it's obvious the opposition is willing to let the Lions churn yardage by playing the safeties deep. Once they are in the red zone with a shorter field they simply clog up passing lanes without fear of the Lions rushing game. Stafford hasn't shown the ability this year to throw accurately, consistently into tight spaces and when he has, the drops have killed it. He's been tentative and appeared nervous. I think 3td passes and 4 int's will do that to you.

Defensively the opposition hasn't played from behind much so they haven't had to pass the ball. They have had the lead, their ST's have killed the Lions so for the most part they can simply play a low risk game. Christian Ponder is 6th in completion percentage, Alex Smith is 8th and Jake Locker is 17th. So the Lions have allowed mediocre QB's to have success. The Lions rank defensively 26th in completion percentage, tied for 18th in yards per attempt, 26th in QB rating. On offence Detroit is 16th in QB rating, 16th in passing TD's, 16th in yards per passing attempt. Rushing they're 25th in yards per attempt, 21st in total yards, 29th in longest run.

So the micro stats are a little for indicative of the teams record.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch, now those stats describe a 1-3 football team. We have not played well thus far.

The good news is that reinforcements are on the way, and our offense is getting some off time to work out some of the kinks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="stylish313"]
nagahide13 wrote:
I think the loss of Aaron Berry is something that gets overlooked quite a bit. He alone would have made our secondary far, far better... Not that I'm against him being booted at all.

Our biggest problems are secondary, ST and drops. We aren't a great team right now, obviously, but we would be if we could fix those problems. If even one of those problems moved a bit more toward the average we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'm not defending this team right now, because honestly we kind of suck. I know we suck. But some people are overreacting a wee bit.
I consider ST's to be a measure of how much quality depth a team has. We know our depth in the secondary stinks, because our starters stink outside of Houston and the injury-prone Delmas.

Where does coaching fit with all of this. IMO when Schwartz got here he was better than the talent. Now the talent is better than him. I"m convinced that with the same players Harbaugh would e undefeated.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
Ouch, now those stats describe a 1-3 football team. We have not played well thus far.

The good news is that reinforcements are on the way, and our offense is getting some off time to work out some of the kinks.


I hope they can work out the kinks on offence. To date they have been about as exciting as watching my grass grow.

I hope those reinforcements help and they manage to stay healthy.
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