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Time for Lebeau to go.....
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niro884


Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Butler will have some LeBeau mentality with a twist of his own. Let's just hope it's a good twist with some fresh aggressive ideas. (Personnel will have alot to do with it). The only reason Butler is still here is because he was promised that spot. If not, he was gone to the Colts. We need to draft a true OLB. Harrison's days are numbered as much as I hate to admit it. I'm sure most feel the same. Sorry 4threeMafia, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Timmons is not even close to where he should be. I think 2010 was a fluke. He should be thumping guys at his spot, but he is whiffing alot more than thumping. His last two games weren't much of an improvement. He needs to step up for what he's being paid. P.S I still think we made Palmer look better than he really is.
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nocal530


Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 28
Location: vancouver, wa
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Time for Lebeau to go..... Reply with quote

niro884 wrote:
This may catch some off guard and there is no disrespect intended to this legendary man that we have come to love. However, the truth of the matter is that our defense is struggling. I know we have key players out and some are getting older, but our schemes are awful at times and we don't have any pass rush. Our corners are not that good and we have always relied on pass rush and the "don't get beat deep" mentality of LeBeau, but we have become soooooo predictable. The players know it and the opposing teams know it. Carson Palmer carved us up with his 2 min offense. Seriously? Palmer is not that good and was awful for most of the game. It can be argued we lost the Raiders game on a turnover...true, but our defense can't hold water right now and we need a new look and a new direction. I think this has been the case the last few years. We have an over rated defence IMO. I think some of it is on the players, but mostly on LeBeau. Time to give Butler his chance. Worilds is non existent, Carter is not even close to ready and Timmons looks terrible. None of these facts are helping.
I have been flamed on this board for a couple years now. yes his scheme is out dated. It was designed to stop the run and create a 3rd and 9 then allow an 8 yd pass and make a tackle to force a punt. That was great when the NFL wasn't so pass happy. The biggest issue now is the 12 yd cushion our Db's give receivers, in todays NFL its like basically playing a prevent for 4 qtrs. It;s time the old man hangs it up.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8334
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8428129/--lebeau-evolution-coverage-tactics-zone-blitz

A very good article on LeBeau and the zone blitz

Quote:
LeBeau, currently the defensive coordinator for the Pittsburgh Steelers, has, like Arnsparger, had his strategies vindicated by his success. To go with his Super Bowl rings and the success of his own protégés, LeBeau is a member of the NFL Hall of Fame. For the last quarter-century, innovations by Arnsparger and LeBeau have been the one counter to a football world full of would-be Bill Walshes determined to show off their offensive genius. Today, the zone blitz is ubiquitous, and the accolades recently — and rightly — afforded to LeBeau confirm what many already know.


I personally think it is the personal more than the scheme.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10057
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The personnel don't fit the scheme. Problem is when you waste a pair of 1st rounds picks on support-role defensive linemen, you end up with the wrong personnel for the scheme

Either let the first rounders do what they do or draft different personnel
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 50750
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8428129/--lebeau-evolution-coverage-tactics-zone-blitz

A very good article on LeBeau and the zone blitz

Quote:
LeBeau, currently the defensive coordinator for the Pittsburgh Steelers, has, like Arnsparger, had his strategies vindicated by his success. To go with his Super Bowl rings and the success of his own protégés, LeBeau is a member of the NFL Hall of Fame. For the last quarter-century, innovations by Arnsparger and LeBeau have been the one counter to a football world full of would-be Bill Walshes determined to show off their offensive genius. Today, the zone blitz is ubiquitous, and the accolades recently — and rightly — afforded to LeBeau confirm what many already know.


I personally think it is the personal more than the scheme.


Its both.

Several players in our personnell arent great fits or arent playing well, but LeBeau clearly handcuffs guys like Ziggy Hood and even LaMarr Woodley at times, and his lack of adjustments when desperately needed are inexcusable.

Does LeBeau deserve all the blame? Obviously no, but his scheme is still showing its age and has been for 3 years. He doeesnt get a pass just because of his previous accomplishments.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clark made a comment after the Oakland game that some players were not trusting the scheme. Some people took that as negative towards LeBeau but Clark was talking about players getting out of position to make plays rather than trusting teammates to do their job.

If both TP and Harrison play this week I think we will see a difference.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 6431
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, the concerns fall into two parts.

1) In the front seven, Carter and Worilds simply are not threats to generate pressure off the edge so teams give TE help or chip Wood and negate him. We lack a secondary pass rush threat with Harrison out. There is no threat of interior pressure at all.

2) In the secondary, playing the pattern matching scheme as mentioned in the article, the seam player has a tough job. Mundy is simply not talented enough to be asked to play this role. TP is immensely important in letting LeBeau call more aggressive looks in the front 7 and Mundy simply doesn't allow him to do that.

I don't know that simply 1 gapping the DL would fix the pass rush. Heyward and Ziggy may be seen as square pegs in round holes right now, but they haven't even proven they are round pegs so far. Granted, it's a lack of opportunity that hasn't allowed them to prove themselves in that capacity yet, but nonetheless simply assuming they would play better within that system is premature.

Throw in that I have no faith in either Foote or Timmons to play smart gap control football (Wood or Harrison either really) and I think you end up with a big collective square peg, round hole issue in the front seven when you look at switching to a 1 gap system.

Calling for adjustments is great, but what specifically, and who specifically should be adjusted? I'm not giving LeBeau a pass, but he doesn't have a lot to work with, especially given the importance of the injured talent.

I, too expect Harrison and TP to make a difference, maybe even a large difference....but the fact is that this defense is on the verge of becoming very bad, very quickly absent an infusion of young playmaking talent going into 2013.
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Last edited by treat88 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 50750
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Clark made a comment after the Oakland game that some players were not trusting the scheme. Some people took that as negative towards LeBeau but Clark was talking about players getting out of position to make plays rather than trusting teammates to do their job.

If both TP and Harrison play this week I think we will see a difference.


Do you think he is going to bash LeBeau?

I would say the same thing....or along the same lines.

Even LeBeau said so on Steelers.com...."we all have to point the fingers at ourselves" (paraphrased) and he took some of the blame on his shoulders.

The blame goes all around. We dont have players that are going to point fingers outside of maybe James Harrison pointing at the offense.

I do agree Harrison and Troy will make a difference, but this defense hasnt been that great since 2008. Yeah...we finished top 10 the last 3 years so I am not complaining, but seems like this team has been incapable of shutting down top QBs since SB 43 when Warner went off on us. And hell, dating back to 2009, our defense has been absysmal against the hurry up/no huddle, even vs the likes of Bruce Gradkowski and Matt Cassell.

Thats where the blame for LeBeau comes in, because while execution does play a part, the fact that he hasnt made any real adjustments to counter that garbage is ridiculous.

I dont have the answers, but I will say I wonder why we dont play defense more often like we played vs the Pats last year. Brady still had a decent day, but we disrupted their routes and play phyical with their WRs and TEs. All this garbage with us contantly giving up 5-10 yards of cushion is killing us, especially when we arent getting pressure on the QB.

So as I said....it goes both ways.

I do expect an improvement, both from LeBeau and the players, but I think we will continue to be vulnerable vs the hurry up/no huddle and vs top QBs who have our defense figured out.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8334
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The the way the rules current are, no team is doing squat to the elite QBs. To expect the Steelers to do something that the rules are preventing.

http://espn.go.com/espn/playbook/story/_/id/8449538/offenses-scoring-control-time-tweak-some-rules

Quote:
Baylor and West Virginia combined for 133 points and 1,507 yards of offense. New England and Buffalo combined for 1,018 yards of offense. Two players had at least 300 yards receiving in the Baylor-WVU contest, four players at least 100 yards of offense for New England. A quarter of NFL teams are averaging at least 400 yards of offense per game. NCAA and NFL scoring are at record highs.

This weekend, the New Orleans Saints gained 474 yards, the University of Tennessee gained 478 yards and scored 44 points, Virginia gained 625 yards, the Akron Zips gained 629 yards and scored 49 points, NC State gained 664 yards. And all lost, because in the era of Xbox Offense, they didn't score enough.


Quote:
The occasional high-scoring game is fun, but do we really want football to become basketball on grass, with almost every possession resulting in a score and whoever has the ball last winning? Here are possible rules changes to swing the pendulum back:

• Relax the chuck rule (and also call it the Charles rule, which is more dignified) to allow contact with a receiver up to 10 yards downfield.

• Make offensive holding an officiating "point of emphasis." Right now an offensive lineman has to wrap both arms around a defender to be called. Any grabbing of jersey or arm should be a flag.

• Enforce the illegal shift rule strictly. Modern no-huddle offenses involve the quarterback moving around to talk to teammates after he appeared to be set, the tailback leaving his stance to hear what the quarterback is saying, and other movements that sure look illegal. Just as the NBA allows traveling so long as you dunk, the NFL allows illegal motion so long as the result is more offense.

These three proposed tweaks are not dramatic -- but neither were the tweaks that shifted the game toward offense. Shifting a bit back toward defense seems in order.

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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10057
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why teams sell out for the pass rush and to generate turnovers. 3 of the last 4 years we''ve been at the bottom in turnovers. Dead last in 2011.
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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1196
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
I dont have the answers, but I will say I wonder why we dont play defense more often like we played vs the Pats last year. Brady still had a decent day, but we disrupted their routes and play phyical with their WRs and TEs. All this garbage with us contantly giving up 5-10 yards of cushion is killing us, especially when we arent getting pressure on the QB.


I like to have the ability to do it, and with that I agree, I would like to see us go it it a bit more in different stages of the game.

I also remember a huge call for this style of defense after the Patriots game...and then watching us play that style and watching Joe Flacco walk his team down the field on us (mainly against gay, but still).

Just having the ability to switch around the defense more is something I would like to see. When our defense is failing, it just seems like we keep going to the same thing over and over, just expecting it to eventually work.

I, personally, would definatelly like to see us go to more hybrid defense. With the way the Passing game is evolving in the NFL, it seems more like what you need to counter it.
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SouthwestSteel


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1309
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
To me, the concerns fall into two parts.

1) In the front seven, Carter and Worilds simply are not threats to generate pressure off the edge so teams give TE help or chip Wood and negate him. We lack a secondary pass rush threat with Harrison out. There is no threat of interior pressure at all.

2) In the secondary, playing the pattern matching scheme as mentioned in the article, the seam player has a tough job. Mundy is simply not talented enough to be asked to play this role. TP is immensely important in letting LeBeau call more aggressive looks in the front 7 and Mundy simply doesn't allow him to do that.

I don't know that simply 1 gapping the DL would fix the pass rush. Heyward and Ziggy may be seen as square pegs in round holes right now, but they haven't even proven they are round pegs so far. Granted, it's a lack of opportunity that hasn't allowed them to prove themselves in that capacity yet, but nonetheless simply assuming they would play better within that system is premature.

Throw in that I have no faith in either Foote or Timmons to play smart gap control football (Wood or Harrison either really) and I think you end up with a big collective square peg, round hole issue in the front seven when you look at switching to a 1 gap system.

Calling for adjustments is great, but what specifically, and who specifically should be adjusted? I'm not giving LeBeau a pass, but he doesn't have a lot to work with, especially given the importance of the injured talent.

I, too expect Harrison and TP to make a difference, maybe even a large difference....but the fact is that this defense is on the verge of becoming very bad, very quickly absent an infusion of young playmaking talent going into 2013.


I have bolded some of your points that to me hit the nail on the head, though some may not want to hear them. Yours is an excellent post, and unfortunately I have to agree with you. I just don't see the playmaking talent on this D that I have often seen much of the time since the early 70's. There is also an increasing leadership void, with the recent retirements of Farrior and Smith.
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SMashMouthMike


Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 4823
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The the way the rules current are, no team is doing squat to the elite QBs. To expect the Steelers to do something that the rules are preventing.

This is not entirely true though. See seahawks vs packers. Granted the Seahawks should have lost, but their defense kept the Packers off balance for most of that game.

A lot of this is about personnel. I don't care what system you run, when you have 6 of your starting front 7 underperforming, you are going to have problems. But LeBeau has to maximize these guys or replace them. He is reluctant and slow to do so. Some of this is the new rules, and some of this is probably an outdated scheme, imo.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
The the way the rules current are, no team is doing squat to the elite QBs. To expect the Steelers to do something that the rules are preventing.

http://espn.go.com/espn/playbook/story/_/id/8449538/offenses-scoring-control-time-tweak-some-rules

Quote:
Baylor and West Virginia combined for 133 points and 1,507 yards of offense. New England and Buffalo combined for 1,018 yards of offense. Two players had at least 300 yards receiving in the Baylor-WVU contest, four players at least 100 yards of offense for New England. A quarter of NFL teams are averaging at least 400 yards of offense per game. NCAA and NFL scoring are at record highs.

This weekend, the New Orleans Saints gained 474 yards, the University of Tennessee gained 478 yards and scored 44 points, Virginia gained 625 yards, the Akron Zips gained 629 yards and scored 49 points, NC State gained 664 yards. And all lost, because in the era of Xbox Offense, they didn't score enough.


Quote:
The occasional high-scoring game is fun, but do we really want football to become basketball on grass, with almost every possession resulting in a score and whoever has the ball last winning? Here are possible rules changes to swing the pendulum back:

• Relax the chuck rule (and also call it the Charles rule, which is more dignified) to allow contact with a receiver up to 10 yards downfield.

• Make offensive holding an officiating "point of emphasis." Right now an offensive lineman has to wrap both arms around a defender to be called. Any grabbing of jersey or arm should be a flag.

• Enforce the illegal shift rule strictly. Modern no-huddle offenses involve the quarterback moving around to talk to teammates after he appeared to be set, the tailback leaving his stance to hear what the quarterback is saying, and other movements that sure look illegal. Just as the NBA allows traveling so long as you dunk, the NFL allows illegal motion so long as the result is more offense.

These three proposed tweaks are not dramatic -- but neither were the tweaks that shifted the game toward offense. Shifting a bit back toward defense seems in order.


Really? So what Arizona did to Tom Brady, 49ers did to Rodgers, Giants did to Brady in the SB....that was...?

No offense, but it seems like you are going out of your way to shift any blame away from LeBeau.

I admit the personnel is a big issue.

I admit the rules favor the passing game.

Its the lack of adjustments and mistakes being made over and over that are annoying....and not just from a personnel standpoint, but a schematic standpoint. LeBeau's issues vs the no huddle hurry up date back to when we had Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Joey Porter, James Farrior and Troy all in their prime.

Difference is, back then, teams werent running it regularly...usually just at the end of halves to get a quick score. Now that teams are employing it against us more often, we are seeing a bigger problem. And not just against ELITE QBs either.

Look...Im not trying to say its all LeBeau's fault, because it certainly isnt. All Im saying (and others) is that he isnt without a fair share of blame....whether you want to blame playcalling, or the scheme itself for handcuffing certain players on our D.

I love LeBeau as much as anyone, but he was never as flawless as some made him out to be. Difference is, in todays league, those flaws are easiler to exploit. Offenses are evolving, but unfortunately, our defense is not....both from a talent and schematic standpoint.

IMO, this team needs fresh talent in both.
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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scheme can be and must be tweeked - more nickel or in some fashion so that rushing the qb, not stopping the running game, is the preeminent goal. How do you do that with a 2 gap system and 2 gap players?
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