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Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 5522
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just throwing this out there. Normally for every draft class they expect 1 "pro bowl caliber" player / all pro, and one good role player, the rest are cherries on top.

2009 - T.Jax = Solid role player / 7th round = Ryan Succop = solid role player

2010 - E.Berry = Pro Bowl caliber / Dex + Arenas = solid role players / Jon Asamoah + Moeaki = solid role players / Kendrick Lewis = Solid role player

2011 - Jon Baldwin = Solid role player / Rodney Hudson = solid role player / Allen Bailey + Jalil Brown + Jerrel Powe = good contributors
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HiccupGuy


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Normally for every draft class they expect 1 "pro bowl caliber" player / all pro, and one good role player, the rest are cherries on top.

2009 - T.Jax = Solid role player / 7th round = Ryan Succop = solid role player

2010 - E.Berry = Pro Bowl caliber / Dex + Arenas = solid role players / Jon Asamoah + Moeaki = solid role players / Kendrick Lewis = Solid role player

2011 - Jon Baldwin = Solid role player / Rodney Hudson = solid role player / Allen Bailey + Jalil Brown + Jerrel Powe = good contributors


You forgot Houston.
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiccupGuy wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Normally for every draft class they expect 1 "pro bowl caliber" player / all pro, and one good role player, the rest are cherries on top.

2009 - T.Jax = Solid role player / 7th round = Ryan Succop = solid role player

2010 - E.Berry = Pro Bowl caliber / Dex + Arenas = solid role players / Jon Asamoah + Moeaki = solid role players / Kendrick Lewis = Solid role player

2011 - Jon Baldwin = Solid role player / Rodney Hudson = solid role player / Allen Bailey + Jalil Brown + Jerrel Powe = good contributors


You forgot Houston.


Houston is the pro bowl caliber guy. I love that kid. What a player.
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Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
HiccupGuy wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Normally for every draft class they expect 1 "pro bowl caliber" player / all pro, and one good role player, the rest are cherries on top.

2009 - T.Jax = Solid role player / 7th round = Ryan Succop = solid role player

2010 - E.Berry = Pro Bowl caliber / Dex + Arenas = solid role players / Jon Asamoah + Moeaki = solid role players / Kendrick Lewis = Solid role player

2011 - Jon Baldwin = Solid role player / Rodney Hudson = solid role player / Allen Bailey + Jalil Brown + Jerrel Powe = good contributors


You forgot Houston.


Houston is the pro bowl caliber guy. I love that kid. What a player.


Exactly, therefore my point is Pioli is an amazing talent evaluator and I trust him with every thing have EXCEPT THE QB POSITION. He just hasn't pulled the trigger yet on the right qb. IF Pioli is still our GM going into the next draft, I wouldn't be surprised to see him taking a lesser known guy (kind of like a Mayo over Rivers pick). We will all hate it at the beginning but in the end it'll work out for us. Landry Jones anyone? Wink
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HiccupGuy


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
HiccupGuy wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Normally for every draft class they expect 1 "pro bowl caliber" player / all pro, and one good role player, the rest are cherries on top.

2009 - T.Jax = Solid role player / 7th round = Ryan Succop = solid role player

2010 - E.Berry = Pro Bowl caliber / Dex + Arenas = solid role players / Jon Asamoah + Moeaki = solid role players / Kendrick Lewis = Solid role player

2011 - Jon Baldwin = Solid role player / Rodney Hudson = solid role player / Allen Bailey + Jalil Brown + Jerrel Powe = good contributors


You forgot Houston.


Houston is the pro bowl caliber guy. I love that kid. What a player.


Exactly, therefore my point is Pioli is an amazing talent evaluator and I trust him with every thing have EXCEPT THE QB POSITION. He just hasn't pulled the trigger yet on the right qb. IF Pioli is still our GM going into the next draft, I wouldn't be surprised to see him taking a lesser known guy (kind of like a Mayo over Rivers pick). We will all hate it at the beginning but in the end it'll work out for us. Landry Jones anyone? Wink


Jones isn't lesser known. Nic can help us out on that. But I agree with you Mike and add in some FA pick ups. I trust him picking the talent.

Also what if he did see the team ready this off season and wanted to get a QB but we came up short. I mean we all saw Cassel as a guy that isn't a QB of the future.

Looks Luck was going to the Colts
We could not out trade the Skins for RG3 they were picking higher then us.
Tanny went to the Phins. I believe we would of drafted him if he was there.
Manning didn't want to come here.
Weeden would have been Awful in the first.
Wilson hasn't done anything. Hasn't even passed for over 200 yards.
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a big difference between doing something, and doing nothing. There were FA that could have given a legitimate chance at pushing Cassel.

While Pioli has made some good moves, I think by saying we're happy with the solid contributors and one all-star type player we're saying we like being average.

And I'm sorry 3rd overall pick should not be a solid contributor...

And don't forget folks, Pioli has also been a detriment to this team in some areas, including our team image. It says something when coaches/players simply won't come here.

And how have all these solid contributors turned out for our team? Are we legitimate contenders? No, whether they are under-achiving as players, or you want to blame coaching...that comes back on the man making those decisions.

Bottom line is, I don't care if we keep Pioli or not right now, I'm indifferent. If we go the whole season and refuse to admit Cassel is a weak point, I'm hoping to Rage's side of the fence. If we go into the off-season and we get the same song and dance about not being able to trade up, or not liking a guy at our pick. I'll be staying off the board, because otherwise I'll just get banned.
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HiccupGuy


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
There is a big difference between doing something, and doing nothing. There were FA that could have given a legitimate chance at pushing Cassel.

While Pioli has made some good moves, I think by saying we're happy with the solid contributors and one all-star type player we're saying we like being average.

And I'm sorry 3rd overall pick should not be a solid contributor...

And don't forget folks, Pioli has also been a detriment to this team in some areas, including our team image. It says something when coaches/players simply won't come here.

And how have all these solid contributors turned out for our team? Are we legitimate contenders? No, whether they are under-achiving as players, or you want to blame coaching...that comes back on the man making those decisions.

Bottom line is, I don't care if we keep Pioli or not right now, I'm indifferent. If we go the whole season and refuse to admit Cassel is a weak point, I'm hoping to Rage's side of the fence. If we go into the off-season and we get the same song and dance about not being able to trade up, or not liking a guy at our pick. I'll be staying off the board, because otherwise I'll just get banned.


Would going out and saying we are going after Manning or wanting RG3 admiring Cassel is not the guy?

We don't need all pro players to win. We need players that are not selfish and help the team. We have enough ProBowl/All Pro players on the team. We just need soils players that can step it up every now and then.

These FA players everyone wanted us try and get. Well they are not a long term answer. So why go and get them to compete against some thing we already have at starting. A glorified back. They might not play as bad as Cassel but they would still suck. And we would still be hearing the same thing we are hearing now. Pioli knows nothing about QBs and oh noes we suck again.
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Chiefs_5627


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:

Exactly, therefore my point is Pioli is an amazing talent evaluator and I trust him with every thing have EXCEPT THE QB POSITION.



Exaggeration. Picking in the top handful of picks has helped some and the Houston pick wouldnt have even happened if not for his little "green" mistake.
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Mikek163


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
There is a big difference between doing something, and doing nothing. There were FA that could have given a legitimate chance at pushing Cassel.

While Pioli has made some good moves, I think by saying we're happy with the solid contributors and one all-star type player we're saying we like being average.

And I'm sorry 3rd overall pick should not be a solid contributor...

And don't forget folks, Pioli has also been a detriment to this team in some areas, including our team image. It says something when coaches/players simply won't come here.

And how have all these solid contributors turned out for our team? Are we legitimate contenders? No, whether they are under-achiving as players, or you want to blame coaching...that comes back on the man making those decisions.

Bottom line is, I don't care if we keep Pioli or not right now, I'm indifferent. If we go the whole season and refuse to admit Cassel is a weak point, I'm hoping to Rage's side of the fence. If we go into the off-season and we get the same song and dance about not being able to trade up, or not liking a guy at our pick. I'll be staying off the board, because otherwise I'll just get banned.


I dont really understand people saying that "Pioli is the reason why coaches won't sign here". Jeff Fisher actually did come in for an interview, but he left earlier than expected. It isnt like he NEVER showed up or even gave us a chance.

What you have to take into consideration is Pioli runs the team. He drafts guys, he signs guys, he practically tells Romeo who to start and who to bench. Now there are coaches who are fine with that, and there are coaches who arent fine with that. Jeff Fisher traditionally likes to run his defense in a 4-3 / 4-4 split and also likes to be a contributor in drafting players. See what I am getting at? It never made sense from the get go.

The whole Manning thing isn't Pioli's fault either in my honest opinion. Manning has a connection with the Broncos and considering they won the division the year before I think he truly felt like they were the best team to sign with. Many of us like to think we would have given Manning the best opportunity to win a championship, and that is 1100230120% completely inaccurate. If Manning was to make a decision solely on who is the best team on 'paper' he would have signed with the 49ers.

This whole Pioli image thing in my opinion is looked at completely different by us than what it actually is around the league. Have you heard of any free agents who said "I don't want to play in KC". Hell, look at Dwayne Bowe, the guy WANTS to stay here and finish out his career here. Kansas City is a great place to play and will be a great team to be a part of. Guys like Kendrick Lewis - Eric Berry - Dontari Poe - Justin Houston - Tyson Jackson - Brandon Flowers - Javier Arenas - J.C - Baldwin - Moeaki - Oline (minus Lilja) are all young / talented players that attract others to come here and stay here. (Look at Winston for example).

Calm down folks. I know it is a freakin tough time to be a Chief fan but I am freakin sick and tired of all this talk about how we are some embarrassing organization and some frowned upon team.
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
HiccupGuy wrote:
Mikek163 wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Normally for every draft class they expect 1 "pro bowl caliber" player / all pro, and one good role player, the rest are cherries on top.

2009 - T.Jax = Solid role player / 7th round = Ryan Succop = solid role player

2010 - E.Berry = Pro Bowl caliber / Dex + Arenas = solid role players / Jon Asamoah + Moeaki = solid role players / Kendrick Lewis = Solid role player

2011 - Jon Baldwin = Solid role player / Rodney Hudson = solid role player / Allen Bailey + Jalil Brown + Jerrel Powe = good contributors


You forgot Houston.


Houston is the pro bowl caliber guy. I love that kid. What a player.


Exactly, therefore my point is Pioli is an amazing talent evaluator and I trust him with every thing have EXCEPT THE QB POSITION. He just hasn't pulled the trigger yet on the right qb. IF Pioli is still our GM going into the next draft, I wouldn't be surprised to see him taking a lesser known guy (kind of like a Mayo over Rivers pick). We will all hate it at the beginning but in the end it'll work out for us. Landry Jones anyone? Wink


I disagree, Houston and Lewis were the only above average picks for their spot. You think he's a great talent evaluator because he picked Eric Berry? He did get his "guy" at QB...so i'm very afraid of what QB he might pick in the draft.

Dex/Arenas...yes good talent, but atleast Dex was picked too high. We could have had either Graham or Gronk over Moeaki. I like Baldwin, but was that done because we aren't sure we want to keep Bowe? Without a QB, we've seen there's no point having both.

I'd say his strength, beyond 2009, is that he doesn't draft any complete duds in the first 5 rounds....everyone is pretty much a rotation player. I would be fine with that, if not for the negatives of QB, letting Carr go and not getting more help at CB, the '09 draft, oh and QB.

Hiccup, you forgot about Orton/Campbell...one of who was already proven here and players believed in. Both came fairly cheap. Weeden, i'm glad we didn't pick, but he would be an upgrade. Wilson we should've picked. You really think Wilson would struggle as much as he has with Charles, Bowe, and Co. ? Regardless, Wilson is still already playing better than Cassel and he's only gonna get better. Even if the team didn't play as well as we think they would with Orton, that wouldn't be on Pioli, atleast he made a change. However, I think it's pretty far fetched to believe we wouldn't do pretty well with Orton.

Another thing I find truly disturbing"
2011-Bowe/Carr's last year of contract-we select Baldwin instead of Dalton and then get J.Brown. Carr is gone, There seems to be no attempt to keep Bowe and he is franchised.
2012-Albert's last year-we pick Stephenson instead of Wilson...

It's fine to draft guys to replace certain guys who might leave or aren't worth resigning...it's a whole other story when you seem more intent on drafting replacements for good established players, INSTEAD of finding a STARTER for your weak spots, maybe even a QB and looking to resign those good young players.

The Baldwin picks just looks every bit as foolish as T-Jack right now, not just because of Dalton's success. Baldwin has from all reports been sensational in preseason, putting in all the work, making big catches, etc...He's now in his 2nd year and is a first round afterthought if you're a D preparing to play the Chiefs.

If Pioli's plan was to let Bowe walk next year...well he's clearly letting the team's best WR go. If his plan was to keep both...well Scott, it's usually a good idea to get a QB who can utilize two standout receivers, BEFORE you get the 2nd WR.
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People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of


Last edited by ArrowheadRage58 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ArrowheadRage58


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike, you're making some points that support what everyone else is saying:
Arrow Fisher left early, he didn't like the QB and that Pioli would have final say
Arrow Pioli tells Romeo who to play...has he earned that right?
Arrow Manning had the Elway connection to the Donkeys, but if he's choosing the best team to make a SB run, he'd be looking at the Chiefs. He wouldn't give Pioli the time of day.
Arrow Bowe wants to be here, but the feeling isn't so mutual.
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People just seem to be mad because the chiefs are all of a sudden doing what their fans thought they were capable of
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiccupGuy wrote:

Would going out and saying we are going after Manning or wanting RG3 admiring Cassel is not the guy?

We don't need all pro players to win. We need players that are not selfish and help the team. We have enough ProBowl/All Pro players on the team. We just need soils players that can step it up every now and then.

These FA players everyone wanted us try and get. Well they are not a long term answer. So why go and get them to compete against some thing we already have at starting. A glorified back. They might not play as bad as Cassel but they would still suck. And we would still be hearing the same thing we are hearing now. Pioli knows nothing about QBs and oh noes we suck again.


PROBABLY suck. It's the same as why so many want Quinn or Stanzi to get a chance. Multiple guys who probably suck still provide a better chance of finding one that doesn't suck than just trying one guy who probably sucks. Cassel failed, so what's the worst that would happen if we gave another guy a shot? He fails worse? It's not like we can not miss the playoffs harder.
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DT58_lives_on


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What you have to take into consideration is Pioli runs the team. He drafts guys, he signs guys, he practically tells Romeo who to start and who to bench.


Ok...and in the just under 4 years since he's been here, how many Superbowls have we won? How many playoff games have we won? Now if the ultimate micro-manager is responsible for the things you stated above, how is it you can allow him to skirt the blame for at least some of the shortcomings. And remember, if you blame it on coaching...he's in charge of that process too.

I'm not saying he's terrible, I'm just saying it's not like the guy has a proven track record of being a GM people want to play for/work for. Instead what do we hear, he's a rampaging psychopath, he makes people sign non-defamation agreements and non-disclosure agreements (not all that strange on the later). He basically told two of our most popular and contributing veterans they were no longer wanted, has brought in sucktastic after sucktastic NE cast of FA, but the best we have available in 4 years of drafts and FA QBs is Brady Quinn and Ricky Stanzi?

And I think Rage pointed this out, he didn't hit on Houston. A mistake dropped a first round talent to the third round and he took a calculated but very muted risk. Hitting on players is getting a guy like Donald Driver who ends up being one of the most productive receivers in history. Hitting is a practice squad TE you think could play guard and becomes a likely Hall of Famer like Brian Waters. Oh but he had nothing to offer, accept going to the Pats and going to another Pro-Bowl. And if you blame Haley for those guys leaving...see above on who hired the coaches.

Am I the only one shocked that we didn't bring in Winslow? He was a Patriot for a week and we need a TE, makes sense to me.
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Chiefs_5627


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:

Calm down folks. I know it is a freakin tough time to be a Chief fan but I am freakin sick and tired of all this talk about how we are some embarrassing organization and some frowned upon team.



Not trying to slight you at all but there are Chiefs fans older than you (most likely, myself for one) who are so tired of waiting, so tired of "hey maybe next year", tired of the 3 and 4 yr plans that fizzle out faster. The reason i bring age into it is because i know, for one, ive been where a lot of younger guys/fans are now, the "c'mon guys its not so bad" crowd but a terrible fact is: we have not won a playoff game since before some members of this very bd were born and that's terribly unacceptable.

I've spent so much time, $$ and energy on this team and have zero results to show for it. "Calm down folks" I am calm and to be honest im so calm about this whole thing that im actually starting to become indifferent and i never thought i'd feel that way about this team.

Sorry everyone for the depression rant Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefs_5627 wrote:
I've spent so much time, $$ and energy on this team and have zero results to show for it. "Calm down folks" I am calm and to be honest im so calm about this whole thing that im actually starting to become indifferent and i never thought i'd feel that way about this team.

+1
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