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Confidence in Jason Garrett?
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roysmyboy31 wrote:
I don't know for sure, will see how I feel after the season. As of now, we look to be as mediocre as we have before. But really, how many prime coaching candidates are going to be willing to work under such a meddlesome owner/GM?


That's the reason I believe we are better off with Garrett.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
roysmyboy31 wrote:
I don't know for sure, will see how I feel after the season. As of now, we look to be as mediocre as we have before. But really, how many prime coaching candidates are going to be willing to work under such a meddlesome owner/GM?


That's the reason I believe we are better off with Garrett.


So you think the team is better off with Garrett even though you question whether the players respect him.

The logic is irrational.
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mco65


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still have confidence in Garrett. I would hate to see him get axed too soon. He is still learning the job having been a HC for a little over 1.5 seasons. I know this is a WIN NOW league and you don't have much time to turn things around but I certainly hope Jerry gives him 4/5 years to really put his mark on the team.

One thing that is a must is improvement. We have to see improvement over time and I am not sure we see that yet.. at least not from last year to this so far.. hopefully this year or next will show significant improvement..
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NYDC4life


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like JG, and I think he has the right makeup to be an excellent HC. It is early in his career, and would hate to see another HC so soon. JG deserves the benefit to go the long haul on this. Does he have suspect play calling, yes, but what HC doesn't? The players are the ones who need to execute and step the f'up.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
roysmyboy31 wrote:
I don't know for sure, will see how I feel after the season. As of now, we look to be as mediocre as we have before. But really, how many prime coaching candidates are going to be willing to work under such a meddlesome owner/GM?


That's the reason I believe we are better off with Garrett.


So you think the team is better off with Garrett even though you question whether the players respect him.

The logic is irrational.


Here's my rational... I don't think any big name or high profile coaches will want to work under Jerry Jones current structure. Just as an example... In Jason Garrett's press conference about whether Jerry Jones undermined him, Garrett said something like "we talk about everything. The line of communication are open. It's not just my decision or Joe D's decision. We talk to Jerry and Stephen and we collectively work together. Blah blah blah."

If a head coach wants to make a change at KR, he shouldn't have to worry about getting Jerry and Stephen's approval first. Do you think Bill Cowher would be open to that? Or if Bill wants to make a change he just does it.

Seriously, IMO, the majority of the top tier coaching candidates wouldn't want the position just like Al Davis had to scrape the bottom rungs to find coaches who'd work for him. So, we are left with the second tier guys. We've already seen what happens with second and third tier guys. You get guys like Wade Phillips who say "we'll do whatever Jerry wants" (that's a direct quote BTW).

If we are left with second tier guys, IMO, it's in the best interest that the coach is somebody that can persuade Jerry from not being Jerry all the time... Somebody who has Jerry's ear who can say "here's the direction we need to go" and actually have Jerry listen to him. I think Garrett has that ability. But he is a raw head coach and he is young. In other words there is room for Garrett to improve. Do they players totally respect him? I'm not sure. Is he the best at Xs and Os? Nope. Has he been able to instill discipline? Not yet. But, has he done a better job of drafting? I hope so. I think we have to give him til next year to see if his RKG approach works... That would be 3 full years.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new coach doesn't need to be a high-profile guy. There could be another Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier, or Mike McCarthy to be found, who would jump at the chance to coach a high-profile team. If he's a better strategist, a better game manager, a better disciplinarian, and a better motivator, then he would immediately be an improvement over Garrett.

If you're focused on getting a high-profile name to coach in Dallas, then you're completely limiting the number of options available. And as we've seen time and time again, a "experienced" head coach doesn't necessarily mean success will follow him.

Now, I'm not advocating for JG's dismissal at this time. But if there aren't noticeable improvements by the end of the season, then either JG has to be removed or some of his responsibilities will need to be taken away from him. If the team decides to hire a new coach, I hope they look outside of the organization. One of the issues with JG is that he's been with the team for 5 years now and first as the OC. As such, he's developed close relationships with players, especially on offence. In other words, the relationship may be too cozy and too friendly, so offering criticism or getting into the grill of players may not be acceptable.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
The new coach doesn't need to be a high-profile guy. There could be another Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier, or Mike McCarthy to be found, who would jump at the chance to coach a high-profile team. If he's a better strategist, a better game manager, a better disciplinarian, and a better motivator, then he would immediately be an improvement over Garrett.

If you're focused on getting a high-profile name to coach in Dallas, then you're completely limiting the number of options available. And as we've seen time and time again, a "experienced" head coach doesn't necessarily mean success will follow him.

Now, I'm not advocating for JG's dismissal at this time. But if there aren't noticeable improvements by the end of the season, then either JG has to be removed or some of his responsibilities will need to be taken away from him. If the team decides to hire a new coach, I hope they look outside of the organization. One of the issues with JG is that he's been with the team for 5 years now and first as the OC. As such, he's developed close relationships with players, especially on offence. In other words, the relationship may be too cozy and too friendly, so offering criticism or getting into the grill of players may not be acceptable.


But what about Jerry's history makes you think he will work well with second tier guys? I can see it now on draft day... the second tier HC wants to draft player X, but Jerry decides to trade back and draft the Q v.2 so he can draft more special teams players in the 4th and 6th rounds. I think its more likely for Jerry to defer to top tier proven head coaches than the second tier guys. Player acquisition is just as important as Xs and Os. I have serious doubts that any up and coming second tier coordinator can succeed under Jerry Jones the way they have in GB and Pitt. Why? GB and Pitt have awesome management. The cowboys have the worst (or second worst) GM in the NFL. You simply can't expect a McCarthy or Tomlin to have the same success in Dallas where the GM isn't a football guy no matter he hard he pretends to be... and even worse, he can't bring himself to admit it.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
The new coach doesn't need to be a high-profile guy. There could be another Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier, or Mike McCarthy to be found, who would jump at the chance to coach a high-profile team. If he's a better strategist, a better game manager, a better disciplinarian, and a better motivator, then he would immediately be an improvement over Garrett.

If you're focused on getting a high-profile name to coach in Dallas, then you're completely limiting the number of options available. And as we've seen time and time again, a "experienced" head coach doesn't necessarily mean success will follow him.

Now, I'm not advocating for JG's dismissal at this time. But if there aren't noticeable improvements by the end of the season, then either JG has to be removed or some of his responsibilities will need to be taken away from him. If the team decides to hire a new coach, I hope they look outside of the organization. One of the issues with JG is that he's been with the team for 5 years now and first as the OC. As such, he's developed close relationships with players, especially on offence. In other words, the relationship may be too cozy and too friendly, so offering criticism or getting into the grill of players may not be acceptable.


But what about Jerry's history makes you think he will work well with second tier guys? I can see it now on draft day... the second tier HC wants to draft player X, but Jerry decides to trade back and draft the Q v.2 so he can draft more special teams players in the 4th and 6th rounds. I think its more likely for Jerry to defer to top tier proven head coaches than the second tier guys. Player acquisition is just as important as Xs and Os. I have serious doubts that any up and coming second tier coordinator can succeed under Jerry Jones the way they have in GB and Pitt. Why? GB and Pitt have awesome management. The cowboys have the worst (or second worst) GM in the NFL. You simply can't expect a McCarthy or Tomlin to have the same success in Dallas where the GM isn't a football guy no matter he hard he pretends to be... and even worse, he can't bring himself to admit it.


There was an article - I forget by who, maybe BTTB - which articulated the view that Jerry at times places too much trust in coaches as who to draft, and that he needs to be sold adamantly one way to shift from their direction.

Which kind of makes sense given the players we drafted under Wade versus under Redball. The scouting department didn't radically shift under those two regimes.

However, Jerry has shown the ability to side with the scouting department over the Head Coach as well - ala Ware.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
The new coach doesn't need to be a high-profile guy. There could be another Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier, or Mike McCarthy to be found, who would jump at the chance to coach a high-profile team. If he's a better strategist, a better game manager, a better disciplinarian, and a better motivator, then he would immediately be an improvement over Garrett.

If you're focused on getting a high-profile name to coach in Dallas, then you're completely limiting the number of options available. And as we've seen time and time again, a "experienced" head coach doesn't necessarily mean success will follow him.

Now, I'm not advocating for JG's dismissal at this time. But if there aren't noticeable improvements by the end of the season, then either JG has to be removed or some of his responsibilities will need to be taken away from him. If the team decides to hire a new coach, I hope they look outside of the organization. One of the issues with JG is that he's been with the team for 5 years now and first as the OC. As such, he's developed close relationships with players, especially on offence. In other words, the relationship may be too cozy and too friendly, so offering criticism or getting into the grill of players may not be acceptable.


But what about Jerry's history makes you think he will work well with second tier guys? I can see it now on draft day... the second tier HC wants to draft player X, but Jerry decides to trade back and draft the Q v.2 so he can draft more special teams players in the 4th and 6th rounds. I think its more likely for Jerry to defer to top tier proven head coaches than the second tier guys. Player acquisition is just as important as Xs and Os. I have serious doubts that any up and coming second tier coordinator can succeed under Jerry Jones the way they have in GB and Pitt. Why? GB and Pitt have awesome management. The cowboys have the worst (or second worst) GM in the NFL. You simply can't expect a McCarthy or Tomlin to have the same success in Dallas where the GM isn't a football guy no matter he hard he pretends to be... and even worse, he can't bring himself to admit it.


Obviously JJ is a major problem with the team. I have never argued against this viewpoint, and that's not the point that I was making.

All I'm saying is that there are coaches out there that can do a better job than JG, and those candidates don't have to be high-profiled guys. I don't see JJ settling anymore for the Dave Campos or the Chan Gaileys of the world (well, I guess JG could fall in that category).

And this team has had some success. The Parcells' teams overachieved. The Boys went 13-3 in Wade Phillips' first season as the head coach. So there have been times where the talent was there and where the coach and GM were on the same page. Now, it seems like everything - coaching, players - seems to be average or subpar.

And not every head coach wants to be involved with the draft. They may say that they need these types of players, but then leave it to the GM to get those players. The coach will then work with what he has. The best coaches are able to do this - take the collection of talent around him and make them better and put them in positions to succeed. So while it's easy to blame JJ for the team's miserable performances of the past 17 years (and he definitely is a big reason), we can't lose sight that the coaches, too, are also responsible for the team's situation. For instance, JJ doesn't call the plays, he doesn't give the pre-game pep talks, he's not responsible for making in-game or halftime adjustments, he's not responsible for disciplining the team and ensuring they execute the playbook, etc. These are all issues that have plagued the team for years, especially the past 5-6 years after Parcells.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
TheStarStillShines wrote:
The new coach doesn't need to be a high-profile guy. There could be another Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier, or Mike McCarthy to be found, who would jump at the chance to coach a high-profile team. If he's a better strategist, a better game manager, a better disciplinarian, and a better motivator, then he would immediately be an improvement over Garrett.

If you're focused on getting a high-profile name to coach in Dallas, then you're completely limiting the number of options available. And as we've seen time and time again, a "experienced" head coach doesn't necessarily mean success will follow him.

Now, I'm not advocating for JG's dismissal at this time. But if there aren't noticeable improvements by the end of the season, then either JG has to be removed or some of his responsibilities will need to be taken away from him. If the team decides to hire a new coach, I hope they look outside of the organization. One of the issues with JG is that he's been with the team for 5 years now and first as the OC. As such, he's developed close relationships with players, especially on offence. In other words, the relationship may be too cozy and too friendly, so offering criticism or getting into the grill of players may not be acceptable.


But what about Jerry's history makes you think he will work well with second tier guys? I can see it now on draft day... the second tier HC wants to draft player X, but Jerry decides to trade back and draft the Q v.2 so he can draft more special teams players in the 4th and 6th rounds. I think its more likely for Jerry to defer to top tier proven head coaches than the second tier guys. Player acquisition is just as important as Xs and Os. I have serious doubts that any up and coming second tier coordinator can succeed under Jerry Jones the way they have in GB and Pitt. Why? GB and Pitt have awesome management. The cowboys have the worst (or second worst) GM in the NFL. You simply can't expect a McCarthy or Tomlin to have the same success in Dallas where the GM isn't a football guy no matter he hard he pretends to be... and even worse, he can't bring himself to admit it.


Obviously JJ is a major problem with the team. I have never argued against this viewpoint, and that's not the point that I was making.

All I'm saying is that there are coaches out there that can do a better job than JG, and those candidates don't have to be high-profiled guys. I don't see JJ settling anymore for the Dave Campos or the Chan Gaileys of the world (well, I guess JG could fall in that category).

And this team has had some success. The Parcells' teams overachieved. The Boys went 13-3 in Wade Phillips' first season as the head coach. So there have been times where the talent was there and where the coach and GM were on the same page. Now, it seems like everything - coaching, players - seems to be average or subpar.

And not every head coach wants to be involved with the draft. They may say that they need these types of players, but then leave it to the GM to get those players. The coach will then work with what he has. The best coaches are able to do this - take the collection of talent around him and make them better and put them in positions to succeed. So while it's easy to blame JJ for the team's miserable performances of the past 17 years (and he definitely is a big reason), we can't lose sight that the coaches, too, are also responsible for the team's situation. For instance, JJ doesn't call the plays, he doesn't give the pre-game pep talks, he's not responsible for making in-game or halftime adjustments, he's not responsible for disciplining the team and ensuring they execute the playbook, etc. These are all issues that have plagued the team for years, especially the past 5-6 years after Parcells.


I think we are on the same page. All I'm saying is that I don't know if there is a HC candidate out there right now who can do a better job than Garrett who actually WANTS to coach for Jerry Jones and 2.
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sodakcowboy78


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how about this new revolutionary idea...an owner that sits back and watches his team...a GM of football operations that runs the team...a head coach and an offensive cord and a defensive cord...and a QB that puts the team on his shoulders and wins games....hummmm....Dallas will never have this even when Jerry is long gone because Stephen is next in line...JG isnt even a decent Offensive Cord much less an NFL Head Coach


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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sodakcowboy78 wrote:
how about this new revolutionary idea...an owner that sits back and watches his team...a GM of football operations that runs the team...a head coach and an offensive cord and a defensive cord...and a QB that puts the team on his shoulders and wins games....hummmm....Dallas will never have this even when Jerry is long gone because Stephen is next in line...JG isnt even a decent Offensive Cord much less an NFL Head Coach


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What about the Son do you think will continue the sins of the Father?
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
sodakcowboy78 wrote:
how about this new revolutionary idea...an owner that sits back and watches his team...a GM of football operations that runs the team...a head coach and an offensive cord and a defensive cord...and a QB that puts the team on his shoulders and wins games....hummmm....Dallas will never have this even when Jerry is long gone because Stephen is next in line...JG isnt even a decent Offensive Cord much less an NFL Head Coach


Peace


What about the Son do you think will continue the sins of the Father?


I think if anything, Stephen has shown he might be more willing to let the coach make the decisions. And I could have sworn someone mentioned he said he would hire a GM, although that may just be an urban legend.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
sodakcowboy78 wrote:
how about this new revolutionary idea...an owner that sits back and watches his team...a GM of football operations that runs the team...a head coach and an offensive cord and a defensive cord...and a QB that puts the team on his shoulders and wins games....hummmm....Dallas will never have this even when Jerry is long gone because Stephen is next in line...JG isnt even a decent Offensive Cord much less an NFL Head Coach


Peace


What about the Son do you think will continue the sins of the Father?


I think if anything, Stephen has shown he might be more willing to let the coach make the decisions. And I could have sworn someone mentioned he said he would hire a GM, although that may just be an urban legend.


He said that a few years ago. S.J. won't be as great of a business man as Jerry - nor will he receive the notoriety. However I think his contributions to the NFL [behind the scenes like he is currently doing] would continue and would be a really great owner for the NFL. Plus. We would get a GM so hooray beer!
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Figured this could go in here instead of a new thread

http://sportdfw.com/2012/10/04/dallas-cowboys-jason-garrett-needs-his-walking-papers-2/2/

Take it for what it's worth.
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