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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21247
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
This post is for all you guys that keep saying it's not the coaches fault the Raiders have no talent.
The Saints are 0-4 with 5 All-Pros on the roaster.
Let me see what are they missing? Oh that's right it's Sean Payton the coach.
The coaches can make or break a team.


However they have Steve Spagnuolo as their DC and a worse defense than the Raiders right?

You know, Steve Spagnuolo who was a standout DC for the Giants that earned him a HC job in St. Louis. The architect of the defense that stopped the undefeated Patriots from a Superbowl.

So let's see, awesome DC for the Giants turned horrible DC in NO. Could talent have something to do with that?


Things are never black and white, the truth is you need decent talent, good coaching and some good fortune. Watching the Saints this year, there is a dropoff in coaching no doubt, but also they haven't been far off and easily could have been 3-1 or 2-2 (Brees has been a little erratic also not just the D).

At the moment the problem with the Raiders as I see it is that the talent level is mediocre (less in the depleted secondary) and the coaching is mediocre - we have a rookie DC in Tarver and its the first new system we've had for 40 years so it's to be expected. We need a bit of good fortune with injuries and i'm confident over the course of the season our defense at least will improve.

Not one part of the Raiders stay the same or got better every single part is worse off this year.
Offense, Defense and Special Teams everything took a huge step back this year.How is not fair catching the ball inside the ten, long returns against the Raiders or Blocking on the punt team, not a coaching thing.The biggest mistake the Raiders made was hiring people with no experience. The GM, HC, DC had no experience at all and Knapp got fired every time he was an OC.I like Reggie as GM but he needs an experienced HC to help run the team for the first few years.
DA should be an good coach in a few years but he makes mistakes every game.


A couple things. DA mistakes isnt costing games. Its not like we have been close to winning in all our losses. Everything you said as far as the play is because we have backups playing those positions. If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck. Defense if you dont have any pass rushers or corners what can DA or Tarver do about that. First game you lose a important position that most teams dont have back ups at. Then you lose both your starting corners by week 2.(which they wasnt even that good in the first place). Then you have the guys on defense who cost the most not bringing anything to the table.

Like Big P said Spags is suppose to be a great defensive mind but Saints dont have the talent to run his system.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 2861
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
This post is for all you guys that keep saying it's not the coaches fault the Raiders have no talent.
The Saints are 0-4 with 5 All-Pros on the roaster.
Let me see what are they missing? Oh that's right it's Sean Payton the coach.
The coaches can make or break a team.


However they have Steve Spagnuolo as their DC and a worse defense than the Raiders right?

You know, Steve Spagnuolo who was a standout DC for the Giants that earned him a HC job in St. Louis. The architect of the defense that stopped the undefeated Patriots from a Superbowl.

So let's see, awesome DC for the Giants turned horrible DC in NO. Could talent have something to do with that?


Things are never black and white, the truth is you need decent talent, good coaching and some good fortune. Watching the Saints this year, there is a dropoff in coaching no doubt, but also they haven't been far off and easily could have been 3-1 or 2-2 (Brees has been a little erratic also not just the D).

At the moment the problem with the Raiders as I see it is that the talent level is mediocre (less in the depleted secondary) and the coaching is mediocre - we have a rookie DC in Tarver and its the first new system we've had for 40 years so it's to be expected. We need a bit of good fortune with injuries and i'm confident over the course of the season our defense at least will improve.

Not one part of the Raiders stay the same or got better every single part is worse off this year.
Offense, Defense and Special Teams everything took a huge step back this year.How is not fair catching the ball inside the ten, long returns against the Raiders or Blocking on the punt team, not a coaching thing.The biggest mistake the Raiders made was hiring people with no experience. The GM, HC, DC had no experience at all and Knapp got fired every time he was an OC.I like Reggie as GM but he needs an experienced HC to help run the team for the first few years.
DA should be an good coach in a few years but he makes mistakes every game.


A couple things. DA mistakes isnt costing games. Its not like we have been close to winning in all our losses. Everything you said as far as the play is because we have backups playing those positions. If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck. Defense if you dont have any pass rushers or corners what can DA or Tarver do about that. First game you lose a important position that most teams dont have back ups at. Then you lose both your starting corners by week 2.(which they wasnt even that good in the first place). Then you have the guys on defense who cost the most not bringing anything to the table.

Like Big P said Spags is suppose to be a great defensive mind but Saints dont have the talent to run his system.


You talk about inexperince: let me ask you a question who would you have taken as HC? DC? OC? STC?GM?
Here's another one: who would walk into a situation like this???

I love Allen because of one thing: Penalties.
We are one of the least penalized team in the nfl. That comes from discipline. That comes from attention to detail. I'd much rather we build a foundation(which is what we are doing btw) then get some more patch work players/coaches that won't help us anyways.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3623
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
This post is for all you guys that keep saying it's not the coaches fault the Raiders have no talent.
The Saints are 0-4 with 5 All-Pros on the roaster.
Let me see what are they missing? Oh that's right it's Sean Payton the coach.
The coaches can make or break a team.


However they have Steve Spagnuolo as their DC and a worse defense than the Raiders right?

You know, Steve Spagnuolo who was a standout DC for the Giants that earned him a HC job in St. Louis. The architect of the defense that stopped the undefeated Patriots from a Superbowl.

So let's see, awesome DC for the Giants turned horrible DC in NO. Could talent have something to do with that?


Things are never black and white, the truth is you need decent talent, good coaching and some good fortune. Watching the Saints this year, there is a dropoff in coaching no doubt, but also they haven't been far off and easily could have been 3-1 or 2-2 (Brees has been a little erratic also not just the D).

At the moment the problem with the Raiders as I see it is that the talent level is mediocre (less in the depleted secondary) and the coaching is mediocre - we have a rookie DC in Tarver and its the first new system we've had for 40 years so it's to be expected. We need a bit of good fortune with injuries and i'm confident over the course of the season our defense at least will improve.

Not one part of the Raiders stay the same or got better every single part is worse off this year.
Offense, Defense and Special Teams everything took a huge step back this year.How is not fair catching the ball inside the ten, long returns against the Raiders or Blocking on the punt team, not a coaching thing.The biggest mistake the Raiders made was hiring people with no experience. The GM, HC, DC had no experience at all and Knapp got fired every time he was an OC.I like Reggie as GM but he needs an experienced HC to help run the team for the first few years.
DA should be an good coach in a few years but he makes mistakes every game.


A couple things. DA mistakes isnt costing games. Its not like we have been close to winning in all our losses. Everything you said as far as the play is because we have backups playing those positions. If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck. Defense if you dont have any pass rushers or corners what can DA or Tarver do about that. First game you lose a important position that most teams dont have back ups at. Then you lose both your starting corners by week 2.(which they wasnt even that good in the first place). Then you have the guys on defense who cost the most not bringing anything to the table.

Like Big P said Spags is suppose to be a great defensive mind but Saints dont have the talent to run his system.


You talk about inexperince: let me ask you a question who would you have taken as HC? DC? OC? STC?GM?
Here's another one: who would walk into a situation like this???

I love Allen because of one thing: Penalties.
We are one of the least penalized team in the nfl. That comes from discipline. That comes from attention to detail. I'd much rather we build a foundation(which is what we are doing btw) then get some more patch work players/coaches that won't help us anyways.


HC Jon Gruden
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck.


I don't think it's related at all. You can have bad depth players on offense or defense who are very good STers. As a matter of fact we've had some good years on ST in the last decade despite never having much depth. And if i remember correctly, our ST coach doesn't have a very impressive resume. But we were all aware we didn't put together an all star coaching staff during the offseason.. If you remember, we took our time to hire a HC and once that was done, he had to put together a coaching staff from what was left on the coaching market.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21247
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck.


I don't think it's related at all. You can have bad depth players on offense or defense who are very good STers. As a matter of fact we've had some good years on ST in the last decade despite never having much depth. And if i remember correctly, our ST coach doesn't have a very impressive resume. But we were all aware we didn't put together an all star coaching staff during the offseason.. If you remember, we took our time to hire a HC and once that was done, he had to put together a coaching staff from what was left on the coaching market.


I dont see how its not related. For example our back up and starting safety was Eugene at times. He was a good special teams player and a decent back up safety. Depth has a lot to do with it. If we dont have any good depth any where on our team I dont know how any one can expect us to have decent special teamers.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:

I dont see how its not related.


Because how good you are at your listed position hasn't much to do with how good you are on STs because you're asked to do something different.
Rock Cartwright was poor depth at RB but a great STer. Sam Williams was a fine STer too, not a good LB.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21247
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:

I dont see how its not related.


Because how good you are at your listed position hasn't much to do with how good you are on STs because you're asked to do something different.
Rock Cartwright was poor depth at RB but a great STer. Sam Williams was a fine STer too, not a good LB.


But one special team person doesnt make up the unit though. There are guys who are just special teamers out there and I understand that. But if we cant afford to have a decent backup linebacker or a decent backup corner we are not going to have the luxury of having a good special teamer. Also your gunners are usually backup safeties and 4th and 5th corners. The guys at those positions suck at everything.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 2861
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
This post is for all you guys that keep saying it's not the coaches fault the Raiders have no talent.
The Saints are 0-4 with 5 All-Pros on the roaster.
Let me see what are they missing? Oh that's right it's Sean Payton the coach.
The coaches can make or break a team.


However they have Steve Spagnuolo as their DC and a worse defense than the Raiders right?

You know, Steve Spagnuolo who was a standout DC for the Giants that earned him a HC job in St. Louis. The architect of the defense that stopped the undefeated Patriots from a Superbowl.

So let's see, awesome DC for the Giants turned horrible DC in NO. Could talent have something to do with that?


Things are never black and white, the truth is you need decent talent, good coaching and some good fortune. Watching the Saints this year, there is a dropoff in coaching no doubt, but also they haven't been far off and easily could have been 3-1 or 2-2 (Brees has been a little erratic also not just the D).

At the moment the problem with the Raiders as I see it is that the talent level is mediocre (less in the depleted secondary) and the coaching is mediocre - we have a rookie DC in Tarver and its the first new system we've had for 40 years so it's to be expected. We need a bit of good fortune with injuries and i'm confident over the course of the season our defense at least will improve.

Not one part of the Raiders stay the same or got better every single part is worse off this year.
Offense, Defense and Special Teams everything took a huge step back this year.How is not fair catching the ball inside the ten, long returns against the Raiders or Blocking on the punt team, not a coaching thing.The biggest mistake the Raiders made was hiring people with no experience. The GM, HC, DC had no experience at all and Knapp got fired every time he was an OC.I like Reggie as GM but he needs an experienced HC to help run the team for the first few years.
DA should be an good coach in a few years but he makes mistakes every game.


A couple things. DA mistakes isnt costing games. Its not like we have been close to winning in all our losses. Everything you said as far as the play is because we have backups playing those positions. If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck. Defense if you dont have any pass rushers or corners what can DA or Tarver do about that. First game you lose a important position that most teams dont have back ups at. Then you lose both your starting corners by week 2.(which they wasnt even that good in the first place). Then you have the guys on defense who cost the most not bringing anything to the table.

Like Big P said Spags is suppose to be a great defensive mind but Saints dont have the talent to run his system.


You talk about inexperince: let me ask you a question who would you have taken as HC? DC? OC? STC?GM?
Here's another one: who would walk into a situation like this???

I love Allen because of one thing: Penalties.
We are one of the least penalized team in the nfl. That comes from discipline. That comes from attention to detail. I'd much rather we build a foundation(which is what we are doing btw) then get some more patch work players/coaches that won't help us anyways.


HC Jon Gruden


Please tell me you're joking.
Gruden wouldn't come back for a couple of reasons:
Money, dudes getting paid millions to be a commentator for ESPN. As strapped as we are do you think we could afford him?
Power, he'd want to be in full control. We just got rid of that problem.
And other than Oakland has he really been that successful? We all know he won that Super Bowl because he play us. Tampa was never that offensive juggernaught we were.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
This post is for all you guys that keep saying it's not the coaches fault the Raiders have no talent.
The Saints are 0-4 with 5 All-Pros on the roaster.
Let me see what are they missing? Oh that's right it's Sean Payton the coach.
The coaches can make or break a team.


However they have Steve Spagnuolo as their DC and a worse defense than the Raiders right?

You know, Steve Spagnuolo who was a standout DC for the Giants that earned him a HC job in St. Louis. The architect of the defense that stopped the undefeated Patriots from a Superbowl.

So let's see, awesome DC for the Giants turned horrible DC in NO. Could talent have something to do with that?


Things are never black and white, the truth is you need decent talent, good coaching and some good fortune. Watching the Saints this year, there is a dropoff in coaching no doubt, but also they haven't been far off and easily could have been 3-1 or 2-2 (Brees has been a little erratic also not just the D).

At the moment the problem with the Raiders as I see it is that the talent level is mediocre (less in the depleted secondary) and the coaching is mediocre - we have a rookie DC in Tarver and its the first new system we've had for 40 years so it's to be expected. We need a bit of good fortune with injuries and i'm confident over the course of the season our defense at least will improve.


+1

It is a two-way street. You can have a great HC with no talent and a mediocre or bad HC with loads of talent. Either way your team will struggle. You need a good blend of both. Coaches can make players look good or bad and players can make coaches look good or bad.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="bitty"]
Chali21 wrote:


HC Jon Gruden


Get over it. Live in the real world. Gruden isn't coaching the Raiders again.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
This post is for all you guys that keep saying it's not the coaches fault the Raiders have no talent.
The Saints are 0-4 with 5 All-Pros on the roaster.
Let me see what are they missing? Oh that's right it's Sean Payton the coach.
The coaches can make or break a team.


However they have Steve Spagnuolo as their DC and a worse defense than the Raiders right?

You know, Steve Spagnuolo who was a standout DC for the Giants that earned him a HC job in St. Louis. The architect of the defense that stopped the undefeated Patriots from a Superbowl.

So let's see, awesome DC for the Giants turned horrible DC in NO. Could talent have something to do with that?


Things are never black and white, the truth is you need decent talent, good coaching and some good fortune. Watching the Saints this year, there is a dropoff in coaching no doubt, but also they haven't been far off and easily could have been 3-1 or 2-2 (Brees has been a little erratic also not just the D).

At the moment the problem with the Raiders as I see it is that the talent level is mediocre (less in the depleted secondary) and the coaching is mediocre - we have a rookie DC in Tarver and its the first new system we've had for 40 years so it's to be expected. We need a bit of good fortune with injuries and i'm confident over the course of the season our defense at least will improve.

Not one part of the Raiders stay the same or got better every single part is worse off this year.
Offense, Defense and Special Teams everything took a huge step back this year.How is not fair catching the ball inside the ten, long returns against the Raiders or Blocking on the punt team, not a coaching thing.The biggest mistake the Raiders made was hiring people with no experience. The GM, HC, DC had no experience at all and Knapp got fired every time he was an OC.I like Reggie as GM but he needs an experienced HC to help run the team for the first few years.
DA should be an good coach in a few years but he makes mistakes every game.


A couple things. DA mistakes isnt costing games. Its not like we have been close to winning in all our losses. Everything you said as far as the play is because we have backups playing those positions. If your depth sux offcourse your special teams is going to suck. Defense if you dont have any pass rushers or corners what can DA or Tarver do about that. First game you lose a important position that most teams dont have back ups at. Then you lose both your starting corners by week 2.(which they wasnt even that good in the first place). Then you have the guys on defense who cost the most not bringing anything to the table.

Like Big P said Spags is suppose to be a great defensive mind but Saints dont have the talent to run his system.


You talk about inexperince: let me ask you a question who would you have taken as HC? DC? OC? STC?GM?
Here's another one: who would walk into a situation like this???

I love Allen because of one thing: Penalties.
We are one of the least penalized team in the nfl. That comes from discipline. That comes from attention to detail. I'd much rather we build a foundation(which is what we are doing btw) then get some more patch work players/coaches that won't help us anyways.


HC Jon Gruden


Please tell me you're joking.
Gruden wouldn't come back for a couple of reasons:
Money, dudes getting paid millions to be a commentator for ESPN. As strapped as we are do you think we could afford him?
Power, he'd want to be in full control. We just got rid of that problem.
And other than Oakland has he really been that successful? We all know he won that Super Bowl because he play us. Tampa was never that offensive juggernaught we were.




So why did he have his birthday party in Oakland , while the Raiders where looking for a HC.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:

So why did he have his birthday party in Oakland , while the Raiders where looking for a HC.



Obviously it was because he was hoping Reggie to pop out of a giant birthday cake with a nice contract is hand for him to be the new HC.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
bitty wrote:

So why did he have his birthday party in Oakland , while the Raiders where looking for a HC.



Obviously it was because he was hoping Reggie to pop out of a giant birthday cake with a nice contract is hand for him to be the new HC.


That's the way I see it to.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Raidin wrote:
bitty wrote:

So why did he have his birthday party in Oakland , while the Raiders where looking for a HC.



Obviously it was because he was hoping Reggie to pop out of a giant birthday cake with a nice contract is hand for him to be the new HC.


That's the way I see it to.



That's some leap I have to say. Laughing People who he invited must have thought he was a right werido having his brithday party 6 months or so early though.
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