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Davey


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 21523
Location: New Jersey
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He wasn't David Carr'd in the most literal sense, but pieces kept shifting around him and rather than continuing to build around him the Jets let things around him deteriorate. The Jets right now are one of the least talented offenses in football, and that's not Mark Sanchez's fault.

Sports teams are just like any other business. High turnover is not good and consistency breeds success. Sanchez hasn't had the same pair of starting receivers from season to season his entire career and only just this past year did the Jets use a pick in the first three rounds to get him receiving help.

Sanchez is a quarterback that can succeed when the pieces are around him. We've seen that. But right now the Jets offense is awful - we're not running the ball, we're not getting open, we're not doing a great job protecting the quarterback. It only makes things even more difficult when we're playing one of the league's elite defenses. Sanchez is not good enough to transcend this, nor is any other quarterback on the roster.

The offense is a mess right now. Sanchez is a part of that, but there are few players in the league that would have made a difference for the Jets at quarterback yesterday. Again, that's not to say he's absolved, as he was poor yesterday obviously. The skill on offense needs an overhaul. Does that include Sanchez? Possibly. As Spiel has pointed out, even if there's still a chance for him to turn things around all it takes is for his confidence to get completely shot and it is completely over.

And frankly, the Jets are stuck with Sanchez next year anyway. The Jets really have no choice but to build around him one last year.
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 47651
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davey wrote:
He wasn't David Carr'd in the most literal sense, but pieces kept shifting around him and rather than continuing to build around him the Jets let things around him deteriorate. The Jets right now are one of the least talented offenses in football, and that's not Mark Sanchez's fault.

I think it's more like he's been Jason Campbell'd or pre-Harbaugh Alex Smith'd. His team has been regressing around him and no one seems to have a plan for him.

Davey wrote:
Sports teams are just like any other business. High turnover is not good and consistency breeds success. Sanchez hasn't had the same pair of starting receivers from season to season his entire career and only just this past year did the Jets use a pick in the first three rounds to get him receiving help.

Sanchez is a quarterback that can succeed when the pieces are around him. We've seen that. But right now the Jets offense is awful - we're not running the ball, we're not getting open, we're not doing a great job protecting the quarterback. It only makes things even more difficult when we're playing one of the league's elite defenses. Sanchez is not good enough to transcend this, nor is any other quarterback on the roster.

Exactly. I don't think Sanchez is a guy that will be out of the league in three years. However, I don't think he is a franchise QB. If we want to return to being a playoff team, we need to find a franchise QB. Very few teams have been able to sustain long-term success without an elite QB. Since 2004, the only three QBs have made the Super Bowl from the AFC; Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Ben Roethlisberger. Even I had Roethlisberger-like expectations when we drafted Sanchez, it is obvious that he is never going to ba anywhere near as good as these three QBs.

Davey wrote:
The offense is a mess right now. Sanchez is a part of that, but there are few players in the league that would have made a difference for the Jets at quarterback yesterday. Again, that's not to say he's absolved, as he was poor yesterday obviously. The skill on offense needs an overhaul. Does that include Sanchez? Possibly. As Spiel has pointed out, even if there's still a chance for him to turn things around all it takes is for his confidence to get completely shot and it is completely over.

And frankly, the Jets are stuck with Sanchez next year anyway. The Jets really have no choice but to build around him one last year.

I think his confidence level is already at zero. He seems defeated and hopeless out there. His facial expressions and body language are not those of a guy who you would want leading your team. He has been a good leader in the past, but I think the adversity he has faced over the past 20 games has really halted his development. I don't think he will progress much more as an NFL QB.
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JetFanSince85


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.
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KingOfTheHill84


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Posts: 2808
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


I dont agree, those are legit franchise QB's

they read defenses better than Sanchez, dont miss on as many throws as Sanchez

I agree that we wouldn't win a SB because we lack too much but those guys can do more with less than Sanchez could
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JetFanSince85


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 604
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingOfTheHill84 wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


I dont agree, those are legit franchise QB's

they read defenses better than Sanchez, dont miss on as many throws as Sanchez

I agree that we wouldn't win a SB because we lack too much but those guys can do more with less than Sanchez could


Sorry, but I disagree. Jets have zero talent surrounding Sanchez. Not one Pro-Bowl skilled player. Packers have 3.

Brees has 3

Romo has 3

The list goes on and on.....
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Spiel612


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Joined: 19 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


The point is taken, but you also have to look at what quarterbacks like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Philip Rivers did for years with sub-par offensive lines and/or declining play at receiver and/or a terrible defense.

Truly elite quarterbacks have developed the good habits to put their sub-par supporting cast in a position to be successful. Mark Sanchez and Tony Romo are essentially the same player, but the difference is that Romo had outstanding talent around him for years.

Look at the 2010 team. If the Jets had kept Edwards and Cotchery how much do you think would be different right now? If they had acquired a legitimate compliment to Shonn Greene and not allowed themselves to be fooled by Wayne Hunter how much better could Sanchez have been in 2011?

We all know that he was under constant duress last year, and now this year his receivers are utter trash. We also know what Mark is capable of when times are good. That being said, times aren't good right now and his flaws are being exposed. It begs the question...do you want a quarterback like Romo or a quarterback like Manning?

Obviously the answer is Manning. The hard part is finding that guy.
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Jetsfandan423


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiel612 wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


The point is taken, but you also have to look at what quarterbacks like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Philip Rivers did for years with sub-par offensive lines and/or declining play at receiver and/or a terrible defense.

Truly elite quarterbacks have developed the good habits to put their sub-par supporting cast in a position to be successful. Mark Sanchez and Tony Romo are essentially the same player, but the difference is that Romo had outstanding talent around him for years.

Look at the 2010 team. If the Jets had kept Edwards and Cotchery how much do you think would be different right now? If they had acquired a legitimate compliment to Shonn Greene and not allowed themselves to be fooled by Wayne Hunter how much better could Sanchez have been in 2011?

We all know that he was under constant duress last year, and now this year his receivers are utter trash. We also know what Mark is capable of when times are good. That being said, times aren't good right now and his flaws are being exposed. It begs the question...do you want a quarterback like Romo or a quarterback like Manning?

Obviously the answer is Manning. The hard part is finding that guy.




Exactly, the truly great QBs find a way to win with lesser talent around them. That's what makes them elite. QBs like Romo, Smith, and Sanchez can only succeed when they have that foundation around them. We have not provided Sanchez with enough help, and soon he may pay the price for it.
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GangGreen420


Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys trust Tannenbaum and REX RYAN to DRAFT a QB? If we've seen anything in the past 3 years its that they have NO IDEA how to draft offensive talent (or talent at all).

Once the clown HC is gone, and we get one that actually understands the importance of scoring points in the NFL, then ill be comfortable drafting a QB. Until then just stick with Sanchez/Tebow.
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JetFanSince85


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GangGreen420 wrote:
You guys trust Tannenbaum and REX RYAN to DRAFT a QB? If we've seen anything in the past 3 years its that they have NO IDEA how to draft offensive talent (or talent at all).

Once the clown HC is gone, and we get one that actually understands the importance of scoring points in the NFL, then ill be comfortable drafting a QB. Until then just stick with Sanchez/Tebow.


They should of promoted Callahan. That was a huge mistake. You need a OC who understands the position. Sprano is just like Rex, they dont understans the importance of the QB position.

Does Edwards even play for Seattle? IF not I think you make a call and trade for him again.
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ekill08x


Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 8842
Location: Bayport, New York
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetsfandan423 wrote:
Spiel612 wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


The point is taken, but you also have to look at what quarterbacks like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Philip Rivers did for years with sub-par offensive lines and/or declining play at receiver and/or a terrible defense.

Truly elite quarterbacks have developed the good habits to put their sub-par supporting cast in a position to be successful. Mark Sanchez and Tony Romo are essentially the same player, but the difference is that Romo had outstanding talent around him for years.

Look at the 2010 team. If the Jets had kept Edwards and Cotchery how much do you think would be different right now? If they had acquired a legitimate compliment to Shonn Greene and not allowed themselves to be fooled by Wayne Hunter how much better could Sanchez have been in 2011?

We all know that he was under constant duress last year, and now this year his receivers are utter trash. We also know what Mark is capable of when times are good. That being said, times aren't good right now and his flaws are being exposed. It begs the question...do you want a quarterback like Romo or a quarterback like Manning?

Obviously the answer is Manning. The hard part is finding that guy.




Exactly, the truly great QBs find a way to win with lesser talent around them. That's what makes them elite. QBs like Romo, Smith, and Sanchez can only succeed when they have that foundation around them. We have not provided Sanchez with enough help, and soon he may pay the price for it.


LOL @ even comparing Sanchez to Tony Romo. Sanchez had a 2010 season with Ladanian Tomlinson, Braylon Edwards, Jericho Cotchery, Santonio Holmes, and Dustin Keller and he put up 3,300 17/13 with less than a 55% completion percentage and according to ESPN's mysterious QBR which has no mathematical equation to it, it was his best season. We also had a top 5 running game that year as well as a very good offensive line and the #3 overall defense.

My point is, if that is what were going to get from Sanchez with a loaded team, this guy is not the guy we want to build around. Those numbers are not impressive at all. Every single stat he put up that season is below the league average.

Tony Romo would have had a 4000 30/12 65% season with that team. A huge difference.

Marks not an NFL starting QB. Its time to face it. Hes a backup QB in this league. The excuses are getting ridiculous. All of a sudden its everyone elses fault except Marks. After a while its time to point the finger at the guy that touches the ball on every play.
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Spiel612


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Joined: 19 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ekill08x wrote:
Jetsfandan423 wrote:
Spiel612 wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


The point is taken, but you also have to look at what quarterbacks like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Philip Rivers did for years with sub-par offensive lines and/or declining play at receiver and/or a terrible defense.

Truly elite quarterbacks have developed the good habits to put their sub-par supporting cast in a position to be successful. Mark Sanchez and Tony Romo are essentially the same player, but the difference is that Romo had outstanding talent around him for years.

Look at the 2010 team. If the Jets had kept Edwards and Cotchery how much do you think would be different right now? If they had acquired a legitimate compliment to Shonn Greene and not allowed themselves to be fooled by Wayne Hunter how much better could Sanchez have been in 2011?

We all know that he was under constant duress last year, and now this year his receivers are utter trash. We also know what Mark is capable of when times are good. That being said, times aren't good right now and his flaws are being exposed. It begs the question...do you want a quarterback like Romo or a quarterback like Manning?

Obviously the answer is Manning. The hard part is finding that guy.




Exactly, the truly great QBs find a way to win with lesser talent around them. That's what makes them elite. QBs like Romo, Smith, and Sanchez can only succeed when they have that foundation around them. We have not provided Sanchez with enough help, and soon he may pay the price for it.


LOL @ even comparing Sanchez to Tony Romo. Sanchez had a 2010 season with Ladanian Tomlinson, Braylon Edwards, Jericho Cotchery, Santonio Holmes, and Dustin Keller and he put up 3,300 17/13 with less than a 55% completion percentage and according to ESPN's mysterious QBR which has no mathematical equation to it, it was his best season. We also had a top 5 running game that year as well as a very good offensive line and the #3 overall defense.

My point is, if that is what were going to get from Sanchez with a loaded team, this guy is not the guy we want to build around. Those numbers are not impressive at all. Every single stat he put up that season is below the league average.

Tony Romo would have had a 4000 30/12 65% season with that team. A huge difference.

Marks not an NFL starting QB. Its time to face it. Hes a backup QB in this league. The excuses are getting ridiculous. All of a sudden its everyone elses fault except Marks. After a while its time to point the finger at the guy that touches the ball on every play.


Romo also spent three years on the bench learning the offense and then came in fully groomed and ready to go in the mix of a bunch of Pro Bowlers.

Let's not miscast LT. He was a nice spark early in the season and he faded quickly.

Even if Romo is infinitely better now, the comparison remains on point. Consider that Sanchez was still in his second year and had come out of USC early. 2010 was his true rookie year. We saw him make strides each year even as the offense as a whole continued to flounder.

The lack of talent around him has exposed him for exactly what he is, probably once and for all. Good enough to compete, lead, and play well with above average or better talent. Not good enough to elevate a team with declining talent.

We are, in essence agreeing, even if we're coming to the same conclusion through a different line of reasoning. The bottom line, no matter what, is that Mark Sanchez will never be in the top tier of quarterbacks, and if he can't even slightly elevate the play of the guys he's currently surrounded with in his fourth year he'll never be able to do it and it is probably time to move on.

I can't hate Sanchez, Ryan, or Tannenbaum. They've all made extremely positive contributions to the New York Jets. But in the end, it's not and probably never will be good enough for a championship. At the end of this season it's time to change at least 2/3's of that equation, if not 100% of it.
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiel612 wrote:
I can't hate Sanchez, Ryan, or Tannenbaum. They've all made extremely positive contributions to the New York Jets. But in the end, it's not and probably never will be good enough for a championship. At the end of this season it's time to change at least 2/3's of that equation, if not 100% of it.


This is my line of thinking as well. The three had a great run and took this team to two straight AFC Championship Games. I don't think Ryan is a bad coach or Tannenbaum is a bad GM, but I could understand the point that their time has run out. I personally might want to give them another shot depending on how this year goes, but I don't want this to drag on because of past success. I don't want an Omar Minaya or Mike Scioscia situation, where a GM or manager sticks around because of past success. Even if they are fired, I will still regard their respective tenures with the team as a success.
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ekill08x


Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 8842
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiel612 wrote:
ekill08x wrote:
Jetsfandan423 wrote:
Spiel612 wrote:
JetFanSince85 wrote:
Honestly, if we had Brees, Rodgers, Schaub, or Ryan the results would be the same. Dropped Passes and zero seperation from the DB. Look at the Chiefs. Matt Cassel should be excelling with those weapons but he sucks. I bet Sanchez would do pretty well with those skilled players.


The point is taken, but you also have to look at what quarterbacks like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Philip Rivers did for years with sub-par offensive lines and/or declining play at receiver and/or a terrible defense.

Truly elite quarterbacks have developed the good habits to put their sub-par supporting cast in a position to be successful. Mark Sanchez and Tony Romo are essentially the same player, but the difference is that Romo had outstanding talent around him for years.

Look at the 2010 team. If the Jets had kept Edwards and Cotchery how much do you think would be different right now? If they had acquired a legitimate compliment to Shonn Greene and not allowed themselves to be fooled by Wayne Hunter how much better could Sanchez have been in 2011?

We all know that he was under constant duress last year, and now this year his receivers are utter trash. We also know what Mark is capable of when times are good. That being said, times aren't good right now and his flaws are being exposed. It begs the question...do you want a quarterback like Romo or a quarterback like Manning?

Obviously the answer is Manning. The hard part is finding that guy.




Exactly, the truly great QBs find a way to win with lesser talent around them. That's what makes them elite. QBs like Romo, Smith, and Sanchez can only succeed when they have that foundation around them. We have not provided Sanchez with enough help, and soon he may pay the price for it.


LOL @ even comparing Sanchez to Tony Romo. Sanchez had a 2010 season with Ladanian Tomlinson, Braylon Edwards, Jericho Cotchery, Santonio Holmes, and Dustin Keller and he put up 3,300 17/13 with less than a 55% completion percentage and according to ESPN's mysterious QBR which has no mathematical equation to it, it was his best season. We also had a top 5 running game that year as well as a very good offensive line and the #3 overall defense.

My point is, if that is what were going to get from Sanchez with a loaded team, this guy is not the guy we want to build around. Those numbers are not impressive at all. Every single stat he put up that season is below the league average.

Tony Romo would have had a 4000 30/12 65% season with that team. A huge difference.

Marks not an NFL starting QB. Its time to face it. Hes a backup QB in this league. The excuses are getting ridiculous. All of a sudden its everyone elses fault except Marks. After a while its time to point the finger at the guy that touches the ball on every play.


Romo also spent three years on the bench learning the offense and then came in fully groomed and ready to go in the mix of a bunch of Pro Bowlers.

Let's not miscast LT. He was a nice spark early in the season and he faded quickly.

Even if Romo is infinitely better now, the comparison remains on point. Consider that Sanchez was still in his second year and had come out of USC early. 2010 was his true rookie year. We saw him make strides each year even as the offense as a whole continued to flounder.

The lack of talent around him has exposed him for exactly what he is, probably once and for all. Good enough to compete, lead, and play well with above average or better talent. Not good enough to elevate a team with declining talent.

We are, in essence agreeing, even if we're coming to the same conclusion through a different line of reasoning. The bottom line, no matter what, is that Mark Sanchez will never be in the top tier of quarterbacks, and if he can't even slightly elevate the play of the guys he's currently surrounded with in his fourth year he'll never be able to do it and it is probably time to move on.

I can't hate Sanchez, Ryan, or Tannenbaum. They've all made extremely positive contributions to the New York Jets. But in the end, it's not and probably never will be good enough for a championship. At the end of this season it's time to change at least 2/3's of that equation, if not 100% of it.


Well said. And I do very much agree with this.
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Jetsfandan423


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least Sanchez has no weapons. Romo is doing just as bad if not worse and he actually has talent on that offense to use.
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teamorange


Joined: 15 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are acting like our playoff runs were ancient history, like Jeff Fisher last year. We need to move on as a team (or at least start to) but I really see no reason to let go of Rex because let be honest he has always equal or exceed expectations. He was never really given a team to win. I see no reason why he should be on the hot seat and I would rather have continuity as a team than be in constant flux/head coach uncertainty. That spells out a bad team
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