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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5364
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Raidin wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


IMO Carson Palmer was a great fit for the vertical threat Al Davis game, big armed QB with the accuracy to hit deep balls and not afraid to throw into coverage or take a few chances. Also for the system employed by Jackson and Saunders last year IMO.

The system we're currently installing with Greg Knapp seems (admittedly from viewing only a couple pre-season and 3 of 4 regular season games) from all indications to be a short throw, very low risk WCO with lots of quick outs and lateral routes with only the odd deep route thrown in. TE's have seen a fair bit of action compared to last year and DMac in particular getting lots of quick looks.

I'm not saying Palmer cannot play in this system as for me he has done very well, but i think it's clearly not playing to his strengths as a big play threat and also with our wideouts being an UDFA (Streeter), a guy off the street (Hagan), a 2nd year wideout (Moore) and a guy with average hands (DHB) when you need accurate, precise route runners who can catch well in traffic with good timing is clearly not ideal.



Turning the ball over has been Palmer main strength for the last few years. Hardly surprising we want to move away from that.


I take it you're not a fan of Palmer then............



I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


He did lead our offense to more points in that system, and that was without McFadden. In this system, his completion percentage is the same as last year, and his INTs are way down, but so are our trips to the endzone. At this point, I would rather see him throwing more interceptions if it meant we were scoring 24+ points like we did in most of his starts in the old system. Our D isnt good enough to allow us to win scoring 14 points a game.



Palmer only averaged 19.4 points per game last year, this year it's been 16.8.


wait so you counted the KC game into the 19.4. Cmon Raidin you are better than that.


I just did the math, and not counting that KC game, he completed 62%, 293 YPG, 8.6 YPA, 13 TD and 13 INT with a QB rating of 86. I would easily take those numbers in that system and that type of play right about now. Even if he still threw as many INTs as TDs (which I doubt given the time he has had to learn the playbook, work out, and work with the WRs), every TD he throws/leads is obviously 6 points for our team and not every INT he throws will lead to a score for the other team. Normally I wouldnt want a Qb that throws a lot of picks, but it sucks that our QB can take care of the ball so well and we still lose right now.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Raidin wrote:
I'm not not a fan. Does some things well and then does some things very badly. There is no denying he's an interception machine when he throws it down the field often though. Even worse when he is pressured and forced to throw quickly. As you said yourself our WRs are not built for going down the field so I just don't understand why people want us to play that type of game.


To be fair, the WRs are what they and with the injuries aswel we have not been put in a great position...........but to get the best out of Palmer the running game has to be working and it simply isn't under this system. Palmer has really impressed me so far this season but i just think how much more we could get if we had McFadden running like the beginning of last year and we had even the threat of a deep ball. Last year seemed like we were on the right track, sure it wasn't perfect and CP did throw a huge number of INTs but there were extenuating circumstances and i would have thought it reasonable that if we stayed in the smae system the familairity and execution would have increased especially with essentially the same personell.

I'm not against a WCO type system but the blocking and running game has to improve to get that working and theres no indication so far that that can happen IMHO.




It all might have increased but would happen if DMAC got injured again?


With no Bush to fill in it would seriously suck, but at least Palmer would be putting the ball downfield hitting 60% of his passes, rather than hitting 60% of his passes but not moving the chains with these shorter routes. We would certainly see more interceptions, but we would also see our TDs increase. Its a catch-22: score more points but turn the ball over more with a crappy D giving up points or not turning the ball over and not scoring points with the same crappy D giving up a ton of points. At least, in theory, the old system would result in more points so we could keep up with teams scoring at will on our D, thats assuming our backup RBs could at least do what Bush did last year.


The Raiders O had the most 20+ yard plays over the past 2 seasons. Darren McFadden lead the league in the same stat. The offense would be completely different if they had good coaching using Palmer and McFadden right. I'm so bummed that this is how the Raiders O looks.


+1

McFadden had the 2nd most 20+ yard runs between 2010 and 2011- just one behind Chris Johnson- and thats with him only playing in 19 games over that period.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't actually mean to count the KC game, not sure how that happened. Also Palmer stats this year after 4 games are 5 TDs 2 Ints, 61%, 6.7 AVG and 270yards per game. Over 9 games he'd have 10TDs and 4 Ints. I'd much rather 2 less touchdowns and 9 less Ints than 2 more TDs and 9 more Ints. Not sure how anyone would take the increased Ints.
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nbaker1933


Joined: 31 May 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Didn't actually mean to count the KC game, not sure how that happened. Also Palmer stats this year after 4 games are 5 TDs 2 Ints, 61%, 6.7 AVG and 270yards per game. Over 9 games he'd have 10TDs and 4 Ints. I'd much rather 2 less touchdowns and 9 less Ints than 2 more TDs and 9 more Ints. Not sure how anyone would take the increased Ints.


They would be better too had Dmo not slipped.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Didn't actually mean to count the KC game, not sure how that happened. Also Palmer stats this year after 4 games are 5 TDs 2 Ints, 61%, 6.7 AVG and 270yards per game. Over 9 games he'd have 10TDs and 4 Ints. I'd much rather 2 less touchdowns and 9 less Ints than 2 more TDs and 9 more Ints. Not sure how anyone would take the increased Ints.


Well, its 3 more TDs and thats just the TDs that he threw. Thats not counting the TD drives he lead. Our offense scored 22 PPG with him last year, so I'd absolutely take the extra 6 points a game if it meant an extra INT a game. And that 22 PPG was w/o McFadden, so it very realistically would be higher now that he is healthy. Individually, yea his stats project to 20 TD and only 8 INT over 16 games and I would rather have that if you are just talking about your QB's stats, but with those stats come this offense and a lowly 19 PPG. Palmer last year led our offense to a lot more points and now he has McFadden so the offense should have taken a step forward.
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La_Vader wrote:
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.


How about no one's thriving? You realize that just because Carson Palmer looks good throwing the ball, doesn't mean he's being successful. Thriving and playing well are two completely different things. If Carson Palmer was thriving, we'd be scoring more points, converting better on 3rd down, and seeing the redzone far more often. None of those things are his fault, but the fault of his scheme, which is why it's ludicrous to say any part of the offense is thriving.

I get that you like sticking up for Greg Knapp at any chance you can, but I find it funny that you're trying to make it seem like Knapp's offense is built around the QB just because we can't run the ball. You'll deny that, but that's really the logic you're using.


Fine. Noone is thriving. But Palmer is playing as well as anyone we have, and that was the meaning of my point.

I am not and have not stuck up for Greg Knapp. Please read my posts. My point on Knapp is that I feel this team has much bigger problems. My point in general. But as I assume you will do, feel free to go back through my posts, pull out one sentence out of context and meaning and try to expose it word by word to prove your own point, which is what exactly?

My OPINION, is that Knapp is not our biggest problem. I don't even believe he is in the top five of our team's problems. My Opinion. Firing him is a non issue to me, because the team will still be suffering greatly from other significant issues.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21529
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.


How about no one's thriving? You realize that just because Carson Palmer looks good throwing the ball, doesn't mean he's being successful. Thriving and playing well are two completely different things. If Carson Palmer was thriving, we'd be scoring more points, converting better on 3rd down, and seeing the redzone far more often. None of those things are his fault, but the fault of his scheme, which is why it's ludicrous to say any part of the offense is thriving.

I get that you like sticking up for Greg Knapp at any chance you can, but I find it funny that you're trying to make it seem like Knapp's offense is built around the QB just because we can't run the ball. You'll deny that, but that's really the logic you're using.


Fine. Noone is thriving. But Palmer is playing as well as anyone we have, and that was the meaning of my point.

I am not and have not stuck up for Greg Knapp. Please read my posts. My point on Knapp is that I feel this team has much bigger problems. My point in general. But as I assume you will do, feel free to go back through my posts, pull out one sentence out of context and meaning and try to expose it word by word to prove your own point, which is what exactly?

My OPINION, is that Knapp is not our biggest problem. I don't even believe he is in the top five of our team's problems. My Opinion. Firing him is a non issue to me, because the team will still be suffering greatly from other significant issues.


Knapp would definitely make my top 5. What are five issues you think are more troubling than him? Just asking for discussion purposes.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5364
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.


How about no one's thriving? You realize that just because Carson Palmer looks good throwing the ball, doesn't mean he's being successful. Thriving and playing well are two completely different things. If Carson Palmer was thriving, we'd be scoring more points, converting better on 3rd down, and seeing the redzone far more often. None of those things are his fault, but the fault of his scheme, which is why it's ludicrous to say any part of the offense is thriving.

I get that you like sticking up for Greg Knapp at any chance you can, but I find it funny that you're trying to make it seem like Knapp's offense is built around the QB just because we can't run the ball. You'll deny that, but that's really the logic you're using.


Fine. Noone is thriving. But Palmer is playing as well as anyone we have, and that was the meaning of my point.

I am not and have not stuck up for Greg Knapp. Please read my posts. My point on Knapp is that I feel this team has much bigger problems. My point in general. But as I assume you will do, feel free to go back through my posts, pull out one sentence out of context and meaning and try to expose it word by word to prove your own point, which is what exactly?

My OPINION, is that Knapp is not our biggest problem. I don't even believe he is in the top five of our team's problems. My Opinion. Firing him is a non issue to me, because the team will still be suffering greatly from other significant issues.


Knapp would definitely make my top 5. What are five issues you think are more troubling than him? Just asking for discussion purposes.


In no particular order, my top 5 are:

-CBs (More the injuries to our CBs)
-Lack of depth (DB, RB especially)
-LBs not named Wheeler
-Lack of pass rush
-Run blocking

I dont like the playcalling, but if our guys could run block effectively I honestly think the playcalling wouldnt be as much of a factor since McFadden would be rolling. Then again, the run blocking issues are mainly on the ZBS right now, which was Knapp's doing so I dont know if that puts him in my top 5 or not- I guess indirectly it does?
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5766
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will bite.

Considering what Reggie McKenzie walked into, and looking at it from his potential perspective:

1. Organizational rebuild. The guy had to rebuild the entire football organization, which is not even really a typical GM's job. In fact, no GM other than an expansion GM ever had such a task. Top to bottom, modernizing everything. He can't even begin to operate his offices and team the way he wants without a legitimate functional modern football hierarchy and structure.
2. Salary issues. This team has some serious money problems. He has already engaged some of them, but in a year when you have very few draft picks there are limited options for replacing lost players. I'm not talking about cap hell, I am talking about bad contracts too.
3. Current talent evaluation. We've only begun to look at the current talent and determine the future and fit for the direction of the team. Once again, limited draft and money hamstring issues here, so even though this year was a bit of house cleaning it certainly was limited to a great degree..

At this point we all have to realize this offseason was a lost year. I am sure whatever Allen and McKenzie really want(ed) to do was severely hampered by the money and draft situations. It's a lost offseason essentially, so next year will be more of what this should have been.

Continuing 3, it's an ongoing process to see exactly what we have worth having, what to do with these players, and how to replace them if needed. We've got alot of one year contracts and still have a number of bad contracts. Alot of contracts and extensions to consider and work on. I'm pretty sure this enters McKenzie's mind before Knapp, and right now it's just a big issue that has yet to be stabilized.

4. Adding talent, especially defensive. We're still missing our #2 pick next year, but it should be clear to everyone we need to add defensive talent any way we can. His scouting of next year's draft and FA is probably a big thing looming. Adding this talent can include creative ways to add draft picks, and considering the trade deadline is week 8, I am certain the guy is on the phones often, looking perhaps to add picks if he even can do so. He's spoken many times about ow much he likes his draft picks.
One issue intertwined with this is that we lack excess talent to offload for more picks. And if there is any talent, chances are it is overpaid.

What comes into play here is that talent currently on the team was drafted with an entirely different philosophy than any other team. We drafted on size, speed, and potential. Fine. But noone was drafted to even play in a set system. We can run 6 different defenses and still not find the right one for more than 30% of our starters. They all fit on different teams. No cohesion. That necessitates a total rebuild, under an actual single system or ideal.

Bear in mind, I could easily have picked apart numbers one through four to make them out to be 10 different things and didn't even begin to address on field issues individually, so in my mind I am already out of the top 5. But in the interest of acknowledging it is worth being concerned about Knapp, and it is worth acknowledging, we'll do it this way. It's easy to overlook how complicated a job like Reggie McKenzie's job really is.

5. Evaluating and continuing to add current and future staff. Evaluations go from top bottom. But at worst, Knapp falls into #3 on the list. Because Allen is the HC he will be evaluated the most and has the most power and effect. Tarver comes next, because even though Knapp has not overwhelmed anyone with his successes, the defense has been worse than the offense. And even then, Hoffman is probably closer to the chopping block than Knapp. The special teams have underperformed for no reason other than unpreparedness and lack of attention to detail and/or effort.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21529
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I will bite.

Considering what Reggie McKenzie walked into, and looking at it from his potential perspective:

1. Organizational rebuild. The guy had to rebuild the entire football organization, which is not even really a typical GM's job. In fact, no GM other than an expansion GM ever had such a task. Top to bottom, modernizing everything. He can't even begin to operate his offices and team the way he wants without a legitimate functional modern football hierarchy and structure.
2. Salary issues. This team has some serious money problems. He has already engaged some of them, but in a year when you have very few draft picks there are limited options for replacing lost players. I'm not talking about cap hell, I am talking about bad contracts too.
3. Current talent evaluation. We've only begun to look at the current talent and determine the future and fit for the direction of the team. Once again, limited draft and money hamstring issues here, so even though this year was a bit of house cleaning it certainly was limited to a great degree..

At this point we all have to realize this offseason was a lost year. I am sure whatever Allen and McKenzie really want(ed) to do was severely hampered by the money and draft situations. It's a lost offseason essentially, so next year will be more of what this should have been.

Continuing 3, it's an ongoing process to see exactly what we have worth having, what to do with these players, and how to replace them if needed. We've got alot of one year contracts and still have a number of bad contracts. Alot of contracts and extensions to consider and work on. I'm pretty sure this enters McKenzie's mind before Knapp, and right now it's just a big issue that has yet to be stabilized.

4. Adding talent, especially defensive. We're still missing our #2 pick next year, but it should be clear to everyone we need to add defensive talent any way we can. His scouting of next year's draft and FA is probably a big thing looming. Adding this talent can include creative ways to add draft picks, and considering the trade deadline is week 8, I am certain the guy is on the phones often, looking perhaps to add picks if he even can do so. He's spoken many times about ow much he likes his draft picks.
One issue intertwined with this is that we lack excess talent to offload for more picks. And if there is any talent, chances are it is overpaid.

What comes into play here is that talent currently on the team was drafted with an entirely different philosophy than any other team. We drafted on size, speed, and potential. Fine. But noone was drafted to even play in a set system. We can run 6 different defenses and still not find the right one for more than 30% of our starters. They all fit on different teams. No cohesion. That necessitates a total rebuild, under an actual single system or ideal.

Bear in mind, I could easily have picked apart numbers one through four to make them out to be 10 different things and didn't even begin to address on field issues individually, so in my mind I am already out of the top 5. But in the interest of acknowledging it is worth being concerned about Knapp, and it is worth acknowledging, we'll do it this way. It's easy to overlook how complicated a job like Reggie McKenzie's job really is.

5. Evaluating and continuing to add current and future staff. Evaluations go from top bottom. But at worst, Knapp falls into #3 on the list. Because Allen is the HC he will be evaluated the most and has the most power and effect. Tarver comes next, because even though Knapp has not overwhelmed anyone with his successes, the defense has been worse than the offense. And even then, Hoffman is probably closer to the chopping block than Knapp. The special teams have underperformed for no reason other than unpreparedness and lack of attention to detail and/or effort.


Good post. I wasnt thinking of as an organizational stand point. I was thinking more of what Zoom listed. I would agree with Zoom list other than Knapp would be higher than the linebacker problem.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5766
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I will bite.

Considering what Reggie McKenzie walked into, and looking at it from his potential perspective:

1. Organizational rebuild. The guy had to rebuild the entire football organization, which is not even really a typical GM's job. In fact, no GM other than an expansion GM ever had such a task. Top to bottom, modernizing everything. He can't even begin to operate his offices and team the way he wants without a legitimate functional modern football hierarchy and structure.
2. Salary issues. This team has some serious money problems. He has already engaged some of them, but in a year when you have very few draft picks there are limited options for replacing lost players. I'm not talking about cap hell, I am talking about bad contracts too.
3. Current talent evaluation. We've only begun to look at the current talent and determine the future and fit for the direction of the team. Once again, limited draft and money hamstring issues here, so even though this year was a bit of house cleaning it certainly was limited to a great degree..

At this point we all have to realize this offseason was a lost year. I am sure whatever Allen and McKenzie really want(ed) to do was severely hampered by the money and draft situations. It's a lost offseason essentially, so next year will be more of what this should have been.

Continuing 3, it's an ongoing process to see exactly what we have worth having, what to do with these players, and how to replace them if needed. We've got alot of one year contracts and still have a number of bad contracts. Alot of contracts and extensions to consider and work on. I'm pretty sure this enters McKenzie's mind before Knapp, and right now it's just a big issue that has yet to be stabilized.

4. Adding talent, especially defensive. We're still missing our #2 pick next year, but it should be clear to everyone we need to add defensive talent any way we can. His scouting of next year's draft and FA is probably a big thing looming. Adding this talent can include creative ways to add draft picks, and considering the trade deadline is week 8, I am certain the guy is on the phones often, looking perhaps to add picks if he even can do so. He's spoken many times about ow much he likes his draft picks.
One issue intertwined with this is that we lack excess talent to offload for more picks. And if there is any talent, chances are it is overpaid.

What comes into play here is that talent currently on the team was drafted with an entirely different philosophy than any other team. We drafted on size, speed, and potential. Fine. But noone was drafted to even play in a set system. We can run 6 different defenses and still not find the right one for more than 30% of our starters. They all fit on different teams. No cohesion. That necessitates a total rebuild, under an actual single system or ideal.

Bear in mind, I could easily have picked apart numbers one through four to make them out to be 10 different things and didn't even begin to address on field issues individually, so in my mind I am already out of the top 5. But in the interest of acknowledging it is worth being concerned about Knapp, and it is worth acknowledging, we'll do it this way. It's easy to overlook how complicated a job like Reggie McKenzie's job really is.

5. Evaluating and continuing to add current and future staff. Evaluations go from top bottom. But at worst, Knapp falls into #3 on the list. Because Allen is the HC he will be evaluated the most and has the most power and effect. Tarver comes next, because even though Knapp has not overwhelmed anyone with his successes, the defense has been worse than the offense. And even then, Hoffman is probably closer to the chopping block than Knapp. The special teams have underperformed for no reason other than unpreparedness and lack of attention to detail and/or effort.


Good post. I wasnt thinking of as an organizational stand point. I was thinking more of what Zoom listed. I would agree with Zoom list other than Knapp would be higher than the linebacker problem.


Understood.
But my whole point all along has been that McKenzie has alot more on his plate than on field issues right now, ALOT more. As far as on field issues, yeah maybe Knapp is in the top 5.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22507
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.


How about no one's thriving? You realize that just because Carson Palmer looks good throwing the ball, doesn't mean he's being successful. Thriving and playing well are two completely different things. If Carson Palmer was thriving, we'd be scoring more points, converting better on 3rd down, and seeing the redzone far more often. None of those things are his fault, but the fault of his scheme, which is why it's ludicrous to say any part of the offense is thriving.

I get that you like sticking up for Greg Knapp at any chance you can, but I find it funny that you're trying to make it seem like Knapp's offense is built around the QB just because we can't run the ball. You'll deny that, but that's really the logic you're using.


Fine. Noone is thriving. But Palmer is playing as well as anyone we have, and that was the meaning of my point.

I am not and have not stuck up for Greg Knapp. Please read my posts. My point on Knapp is that I feel this team has much bigger problems. My point in general. But as I assume you will do, feel free to go back through my posts, pull out one sentence out of context and meaning and try to expose it word by word to prove your own point, which is what exactly?

My OPINION, is that Knapp is not our biggest problem. I don't even believe he is in the top five of our team's problems. My Opinion. Firing him is a non issue to me, because the team will still be suffering greatly from other significant issues.


Knapp would definitely make my top 5. What are five issues you think are more troubling than him? Just asking for discussion purposes.


In no particular order, my top 5 are:

-CBs (More the injuries to our CBs)
-Lack of depth (DB, RB especially)
-LBs not named Wheeler
-Lack of pass rush
-Run blocking

I dont like the playcalling, but if our guys could run block effectively I honestly think the playcalling wouldnt be as much of a factor since McFadden would be rolling. Then again, the run blocking issues are mainly on the ZBS right now, which was Knapp's doing so I dont know if that puts him in my top 5 or not- I guess indirectly it does?


Well said. Knapp will catch a lot of heat, but his success or failure is based on the teams ability to execute.

If they can't execute the blocks, they can't execute the running game and the play action passing game is dead.

Like Bresnehan a year ago. Everyone piled it on him, but the guy didn't have talent to execute his schemes. Now Tarver is strapped with the same problem, plus injuries to boot.

Have to have coachable talent to make your coaches look good.

I doubt Harbagh or any other coach for example could have came to Oakland and had success year 1. The talent has been low on defense for a decade. Asomugha, Burgess. Only two players who were truly talented at their positions on D over the last 10 season. That's pretty damn sad.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Didn't actually mean to count the KC game, not sure how that happened. Also Palmer stats this year after 4 games are 5 TDs 2 Ints, 61%, 6.7 AVG and 270yards per game. Over 9 games he'd have 10TDs and 4 Ints. I'd much rather 2 less touchdowns and 9 less Ints than 2 more TDs and 9 more Ints. Not sure how anyone would take the increased Ints.


that jc type #'s with a 10mil price tag
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:

What comes into play here is that talent currently on the team was drafted with an entirely different philosophy than any other team. We drafted on size, speed, and potential. Fine. But noone was drafted to even play in a set system. We can run 6 different defenses and still not find the right one for more than 30% of our starters. They all fit on different teams. No cohesion. That necessitates a total rebuild, under an actual single system or ideal.


I really don't understand how you can say that. First, the Raiders are far from the only team using a height/weight/speed drafting philosophy. For example, the Giants and the Packers are known for doing it as well. And it shouldn't be really surprising the Packers do it since Ron Wolf has been a huge influence in their front office and we all know who he learned under.

Secondly, the Raiders have had the most set defensive scheme of any franchise in the league the last 40 years. Man to man, single high safety, little to no blitzing, 4 man rush. Accordingly, they've always been looking for fast CBs to play man on the outside, fast FS to cover so much ground in the middle of the field, pass rushing dlinemen because the rush would have to come from the front 4 and they cared less about LBs because they weren't asked to have a huge impact in that scheme.
The players targeted made perfect sense for the kind of defense we ran.

Finally, many of the current players on D (not talking only about starters there) have been brought up by the new regime.
Tollefson, Bilukidi, Crawford, Carter, Wheeler, Burris, Clayton, So'Oto, Bartell, Spencer, Lee, Adams, Ross and Francies. Presumably, they've been brought in because they fit what we want to do on D now. If the staff feels the players they inherited can't operate cohesively in this defense, they're free to let players who fit it better see more playing time, even if they're not as talented.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Darkness wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Not sure why people think this system doesn't suit Palmer. It suits him far more then getting him to fling the ball down field so he can turn it over.


+1 on that.
If the current play of the team indicates anything, it's that it suits Palmer more than any other player we have. He's the only one thriving aside from Myers. Build around the QB, what a novel idea..


"thriving"? Laughing Brick wall


What's up bro, are you just stalking me individually here in the forum, trolling one person because they support the current team and disagree with your shortsighted perspective?

Who's playing best on our offense right now? No point in even saying our best player is on D, because it's currently the worst performing defense in the league. Hence, noone on that side of the ball is good. Can't be our Special Teams, because it's been awful.

So let me rephrase to keep you from trolling my posts and nitpicking every word I write. If one player on our team can be considered thriving, who would it be? Aside from Myers, who I already mentioned.

I mean, what kind of a troll shows up in a post nitpicking one word because of the word choice. Choose a better word then, and at least attempt to engage in intelligent discussion rather than trolling my posts, ya troll.


How about no one's thriving? You realize that just because Carson Palmer looks good throwing the ball, doesn't mean he's being successful. Thriving and playing well are two completely different things. If Carson Palmer was thriving, we'd be scoring more points, converting better on 3rd down, and seeing the redzone far more often. None of those things are his fault, but the fault of his scheme, which is why it's ludicrous to say any part of the offense is thriving.

I get that you like sticking up for Greg Knapp at any chance you can, but I find it funny that you're trying to make it seem like Knapp's offense is built around the QB just because we can't run the ball. You'll deny that, but that's really the logic you're using.


Fine. Noone is thriving. But Palmer is playing as well as anyone we have, and that was the meaning of my point.

I am not and have not stuck up for Greg Knapp. Please read my posts. My point on Knapp is that I feel this team has much bigger problems. My point in general. But as I assume you will do, feel free to go back through my posts, pull out one sentence out of context and meaning and try to expose it word by word to prove your own point, which is what exactly?

My OPINION, is that Knapp is not our biggest problem. I don't even believe he is in the top five of our team's problems. My Opinion. Firing him is a non issue to me, because the team will still be suffering greatly from other significant issues.


Knapp would definitely make my top 5. What are five issues you think are more troubling than him? Just asking for discussion purposes.


In no particular order, my top 5 are:

-CBs (More the injuries to our CBs)
-Lack of depth (DB, RB especially)
-LBs not named Wheeler
-Lack of pass rush
-Run blocking

I dont like the playcalling, but if our guys could run block effectively I honestly think the playcalling wouldnt be as much of a factor since McFadden would be rolling. Then again, the run blocking issues are mainly on the ZBS right now, which was Knapp's doing so I dont know if that puts him in my top 5 or not- I guess indirectly it does?


lol also 3 and outs put more pressure on those db's and lb's. if knapp could just sustain some drives it would help the d alot. we are outscored 55-7 in the 3rd qtr, are 14 -51 on third downs and have only scored 6 tds total in 4 games. imo thats on knapp.
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