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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

santiagomn8 wrote:
Manti Te'o period

1. Scott Wright has Te'O going in the top 10 of the first round in his mock. It's only his first and isn't any guarantee, but it's unlikely that Te'O will be available for us in the draft.

2. Personally I prefer CJ Mosley to Te'O from what I've seen on tape.
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gooselovechild


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
Manti Te'o period

1. Scott Wright has Te'O going in the top 10 of the first round in his mock. It's only his first and isn't any guarantee, but it's unlikely that Te'O will be available for us in the draft.

2. Personally I prefer CJ Mosley to Te'O from what I've seen on tape.


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sp6488


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't looked at 2013 prospects at all. Really right now all I want is for us to draft a big, athletic DL to play at 3-4 end and outside on a 4 man line. I realize we'll probably (and hopefully) be drafting near the end of the first round, so this would probably have to be a very raw prospect.
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santiagomn8


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
Manti Te'o period

1. Scott Wright has Te'O going in the top 10 of the first round in his mock. It's only his first and isn't any guarantee, but it's unlikely that Te'O will be available for us in the draft.

2. Personally I prefer CJ Mosley to Te'O from what I've seen on tape.



I understand that Manti Te'o is a high draft pick. Can we realistically draft him most likely not is it possible maybe. I predict he goes in the early teens and i would not mind at all trading up to get him as long as its not a crazy 3 first round draft pick trade. Redskins and Falcons traded up for their guys and i kno they dont regret it. adding Te'o to this defense will get us younger faster and is a great look for the future.
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STrid


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I question if Te'O even would be a wise pick to begin with, where he to be available at where we pick. Of course this all comes down to who else is on the board, but given the choice between him and a passrusher or an offensive lineman, I know who I would pick (granted that the drop-off in talent is not too big).

The MLB position is being phased out of the game more and more, and I really wonder if it's worth using a high pick on a guy who is not going to have the impact that a good passrusher or a good offensive lineman can have. I know you people are going to bring up Ray Lewis now, but the fact of the matter is that he is a once in a lifetime player and therefore it's not reasonable to compare anyone we might draft to him to him. As the game is now, a dominant defense is not founded on a great MLB, but rather on a line that can create the pressure needed to limit what a QB can do. If we take Houston, or even SF for that matter, as an example I know I would rather have J.J Watt than Brian Cushing or Justin Smith rather than Willis, I would even pick Aldon Smith over Willis. Passrushers are gamechangers in a way that a MLB can never be.
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RAVINGMADD


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:
I question if Te'O even would be a wise pick to begin with, where he to be available at where we pick. Of course this all comes down to who else is on the board, but given the choice between him and a passrusher or an offensive lineman, I know who I would pick (granted that the drop-off in talent is not too big).

The MLB position is being phased out of the game more and more, and I really wonder if it's worth using a high pick on a guy who is not going to have the impact that a good passrusher or a good offensive lineman can have. I know you people are going to bring up Ray Lewis now, but the fact of the matter is that he is a once in a lifetime player and therefore it's not reasonable to compare anyone we might draft to him to him. As the game is now, a dominant defense is not founded on a great MLB, but rather on a line that can create the pressure needed to limit what a QB can do. If we take Houston, or even SF for that matter, as an example I know I would rather have J.J Watt than Brian Cushing or Justin Smith rather than Willis, I would even pick Aldon Smith over Willis. Passrushers are gamechangers in a way that a MLB can never be.

I kind of agree with this thinking. The position is definitely losing it's value, but I think I'd still rather have Willis than either Smith. I'd still take a MLB higher than a pass rusher if he's a game changer like that and can play coverage. I'd also rather have a MLB like Ray Lewis, who can be the QB of the defense. So, in those two instances, I'd still take the MLB, but I definitely see what you are saying.

I like what sp6488 is thinking though. A big and fast DL that can play 3-4 and 4-3 DE would be pretty nice on this defense. Maybe try to develop a guy like William Gholston or Margus Hunt.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:
I question if Te'O even would be a wise pick to begin with, where he to be available at where we pick. Of course this all comes down to who else is on the board, but given the choice between him and a passrusher or an offensive lineman, I know who I would pick (granted that the drop-off in talent is not too big).

The MLB position is being phased out of the game more and more, and I really wonder if it's worth using a high pick on a guy who is not going to have the impact that a good passrusher or a good offensive lineman can have. I know you people are going to bring up Ray Lewis now, but the fact of the matter is that he is a once in a lifetime player and therefore it's not reasonable to compare anyone we might draft to him to him. As the game is now, a dominant defense is not founded on a great MLB, but rather on a line that can create the pressure needed to limit what a QB can do. If we take Houston, or even SF for that matter, as an example I know I would rather have J.J Watt than Brian Cushing or Justin Smith rather than Willis, I would even pick Aldon Smith over Willis. Passrushers are gamechangers in a way that a MLB can never be.


I don't really disagree with this but I still think the MLB is a valuable position on the defense. They're out there practically every down and even though the offenses in the league are trending towards passing more stopping the run is still important. A MLB doesn't necessarily have to be a run-stopping specialist either, it just depends on that particular player and the scheme a team is running. Having a LB that can more effectively cover the big athletic TEs we're starting to see enter the league is also something to consider. Granted you can say the same for regular LBs (by that I mean those who aren't primarily pass-rushers from that position) but I feel like that this argument applies to them as well in terms of positions being phased out.

Having Watt over Cushing isn't much of an example since Watt is far better a player than Cushing regardless of where they play and what they do. Justin or Aldon Smith over Willis is a pretty nice discussion point though. Personally I don't think I could pick any of the three over the others confidently but if we were building a defense from scratch I think I'd take Aldon Smith because of his age and he looks to be a great pass-rusher with what he did last season and how he's starting this season. If I was choosing between Willis and Justin Smith... I really don't know. It depends on the composition of the rest of the defense.

What you have to keep in mind though is where the Ravens will likely be picking. At the bottom half of the round the odds of findings a pass-rusher with the kind of upside that Watt or either Smith (or just about any young stud pass-rusher you see in the league today) is very slim. In fact the lowest draft player of any of those three is Watt who went 11th overall. On the flip side the top of the MLB prospects are usually available around the latter end of the first round. So to me the question isn't drafting a top MLB vs. a top pass-rusher, it's drafting a top MLB vs. an average/above average pass-rusher.
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DontTazeMeBro


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ILB I love Alec Ogletree. Dude is fast. Gets his hands on a lot of balls in the pass game.

Safeties I love John Boyett and LaMarcus Joyner. Worry about Boyett's injury. Joyner's height doesn't really concern(unless he's like 5'7".) Also like Robert Lester to a lesser extent. McDonald and Reid all I see is Taylor Mays.

One thing that really got me interested is Chris Faulk's injury. He might have been my favorite overall player in the draft and now it's possible he could fall to us if he declares(doubt he would.) EDIT: Reading moe. No seemig like a 1 year recovery and still going high in the draft sort of deal.
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STrid


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
STrid wrote:
I question if Te'O even would be a wise pick to begin with, where he to be available at where we pick. Of course this all comes down to who else is on the board, but given the choice between him and a passrusher or an offensive lineman, I know who I would pick (granted that the drop-off in talent is not too big).

The MLB position is being phased out of the game more and more, and I really wonder if it's worth using a high pick on a guy who is not going to have the impact that a good passrusher or a good offensive lineman can have. I know you people are going to bring up Ray Lewis now, but the fact of the matter is that he is a once in a lifetime player and therefore it's not reasonable to compare anyone we might draft to him to him. As the game is now, a dominant defense is not founded on a great MLB, but rather on a line that can create the pressure needed to limit what a QB can do. If we take Houston, or even SF for that matter, as an example I know I would rather have J.J Watt than Brian Cushing or Justin Smith rather than Willis, I would even pick Aldon Smith over Willis. Passrushers are gamechangers in a way that a MLB can never be.


What you have to keep in mind though is where the Ravens will likely be picking. At the bottom half of the round the odds of findings a pass-rusher with the kind of upside that Watt or either Smith (or just about any young stud pass-rusher you see in the league today) is very slim. In fact the lowest draft player of any of those three is Watt who went 11th overall. On the flip side the top of the MLB prospects are usually available around the latter end of the first round. So to me the question isn't drafting a top MLB vs. a top pass-rusher, it's drafting a top MLB vs. an average/above average pass-rusher.


This is sort of what I what I was trying to get at here. Unless there is a significantly superior player available (like a surefire top 10 guy dropping to the late twenties or so), it really is a choice you have to make. The question is: Would you rather draft a worse player at a position of higher need or would you always go with the superior player?

I would argue that unless you are already adequately covered in said position you should draft the guy of the superior position simply because, while being less talented, his impact will be bigger across the board. In the game today it's so much more important to be able to get after the QB than it is to stop the run. A single good player can make a bigger difference in the passrush department than a single good player can in run defense. Ware is an example of this.

If we take last years draft as an example, the choice would be between Dont'a Hightower and Whitney Mercilus/Nick Perry. Now granted, 4 games into the season none of them have done much, but if I had to make that pick I would pick Perry or Mercilus over Hightower any day of the week.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gooselovechild wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
Manti Te'o period

1. Scott Wright has Te'O going in the top 10 of the first round in his mock. It's only his first and isn't any guarantee, but it's unlikely that Te'O will be available for us in the draft.

2. Personally I prefer CJ Mosley to Te'O from what I've seen on tape.


Welcome to thr dark side Smile

Well yeah, I've been a bigger fan of his in comparison to Te'O ever since I saw Mosley play in that National championship game... but before his injury. He was simply all over the place. I mean, on a defense with that many playmakers and superb talent, it just baffled me as to how one guy could really stand out. I was looking at the game just to see how Dont'a Hightower and Courtney Upshaw looked... and Mosley's number kept standing out- then he got injured.

I'm surprised his hype hasn't picked up any kind real steam yet. That being said, I don't dislike Te'O... I think he and Mosley are pretty darn close. Te'O is bigger and stronger than Mosley and better at stopping the run, but Mosley is better against the pass... which is becoming increasingly more important in today's pass-centric league.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

santiagomn8 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
Manti Te'o period

1. Scott Wright has Te'O going in the top 10 of the first round in his mock. It's only his first and isn't any guarantee, but it's unlikely that Te'O will be available for us in the draft.

2. Personally I prefer CJ Mosley to Te'O from what I've seen on tape.



I understand that Manti Te'o is a high draft pick. Can we realistically draft him most likely not is it possible maybe. I predict he goes in the early teens and i would not mind at all trading up to get him as long as its not a crazy 3 first round draft pick trade. Redskins and Falcons traded up for their guys and i kno they dont regret it. adding Te'o to this defense will get us younger faster and is a great look for the future.


Depends on what we'd have to give up, but at this point he's going to go higher and we'd have to give up more than it would be worth to give up. If it's anything more than a mid-round pick (say a 4th or later), it's not worth it.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:
This is sort of what I what I was trying to get at here. Unless there is a significantly superior player available (like a surefire top 10 guy dropping to the late twenties or so), it really is a choice you have to make. The question is: Would you rather draft a worse player at a position of higher need or would you always go with the superior player?

I would argue that unless you are already adequately covered in said position you should draft the guy of the superior position simply because, while being less talented, his impact will be bigger across the board. In the game today it's so much more important to be able to get after the QB than it is to stop the run. A single good player can make a bigger difference in the passrush department than a single good player can in run defense. Ware is an example of this.

If we take last years draft as an example, the choice would be between Dont'a Hightower and Whitney Mercilus/Nick Perry. Now granted, 4 games into the season none of them have done much, but if I had to make that pick I would pick Perry or Mercilus over Hightower any day of the week.


For me it depends on the the current makeup of your team. Generally I would prefer that they go with the superior player (as long as he plays a position that is at least somewhat of a need) over a worse player at a bigger need as I don't think that's a good way to build a team. At all.

On the topic of pass-rushing in the Ravens case Suggs will be coming back and Upshaw will likely have a hold on the SAM LB position so getting a pass-rusher might not be viewed as a huge need. I think it is definitely a need but so is ILB and there isn't any help coming back there. Your point about stopping the pass is more important than stopping the run but I don't think it's the be-all end-all of the defense to the point where you forsake better players in the draft. You use Ware as an example but again he was drafted far ahead of the range where Baltimore will be picking. He's not applicable to this argument in my opinion. If the Ravens we're going to be picking in the 5-15 range then sure but that's not the case.

If you're talking about a MLB like Hightower then I agree that you should stay away from that type of guy in the first round. That's not what every MLB prospect is like though. Te'o definitely isn't that type of MLB if you're looking at the draft this year. He's definitely a MLB but not in the Hightower mold. I'm not as familiar with Mosley but it sounds like he's not either.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:
I question if Te'O even would be a wise pick to begin with, where he to be available at where we pick. Of course this all comes down to who else is on the board, but given the choice between him and a passrusher or an offensive lineman, I know who I would pick (granted that the drop-off in talent is not too big).

The MLB position is being phased out of the game more and more, and I really wonder if it's worth using a high pick on a guy who is not going to have the impact that a good passrusher or a good offensive lineman can have. I know you people are going to bring up Ray Lewis now, but the fact of the matter is that he is a once in a lifetime player and therefore it's not reasonable to compare anyone we might draft to him to him. As the game is now, a dominant defense is not founded on a great MLB, but rather on a line that can create the pressure needed to limit what a QB can do. If we take Houston, or even SF for that matter, as an example I know I would rather have J.J Watt than Brian Cushing or Justin Smith rather than Willis, I would even pick Aldon Smith over Willis. Passrushers are gamechangers in a way that a MLB can never be.

I disagree. The ILB position isn't being phased out of the game at all. It's simply having it's responsibilities varied. The position is actually a lot like the RB position. One could make a statement like- "the RB position is being phased out of the game because of passing" when in fact, it's not, the roles simply change. Now sure the traditional roles of each position are being devalued, but with that comes other responsibilities. For a RB being a dual threat receiver-running hybrid is now where you see the value apex.

For the ILB position, we're now seeing big smothering ILBs that are elite against the run, but poor in pass coverage be phased out, but with that comes the next line of ILB. Ray Lewis was a transcendent player, so of course he came before, but he was also able to do it all. Patrick Willis and his athletic ability are able to cover TEs/RB. But the most recent example of the change is probably Mychal Kendricks. We're talking about a LB with the agility to cover slot WRs out of the backfield, still possess the girth to get it done against the run, and have pass rushing skills that can be utilized up the middle. We're talking highly explosive, highly agile defenders. These guys are going to remain on the field whether it be in base or in nickel defense... only the true Thumper LBers will be impacted.. unless they possess pass rushing skills, like Dont'a Hightower.

In terms of pass rusher over ILBer... I do it only if we're talking two marginally equal talents. If you have two elite talents, I'd still look at which position the team needs more. If you're the NY Giants and you have a choice between a Patrick Willis talent or Aldon Smith... they'd be fools to not go after Patrick Willis IMO. A guy like Willis is going to guard TEs/RBs out of the backfield, he's going to blitz up the middle, he's going to lead your defense and make adjustments... that pass rusher better be more than just a one trick pony elite talent for me to even consider him in such a situation.

But sure, as a rule, if it's strictly value... you should go with the edge threat over the ILB. That being said, the edge threat I think is still trumped by elite interior play- a guy who can be elite in any defensive front.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STrid wrote:

This is sort of what I what I was trying to get at here. Unless there is a significantly superior player available (like a surefire top 10 guy dropping to the late twenties or so), it really is a choice you have to make. The question is: Would you rather draft a worse player at a position of higher need or would you always go with the superior player?

I would argue that unless you are already adequately covered in said position you should draft the guy of the superior position simply because, while being less talented, his impact will be bigger across the board. In the game today it's so much more important to be able to get after the QB than it is to stop the run. A single good player can make a bigger difference in the passrush department than a single good player can in run defense. Ware is an example of this.

If we take last years draft as an example, the choice would be between Dont'a Hightower and Whitney Mercilus/Nick Perry. Now granted, 4 games into the season none of them have done much, but if I had to make that pick I would pick Perry or Mercilus over Hightower any day of the week.

I can mostly agree with this- as a rule of value. But with that being said, it depends on what kind of talent gap we're talking about. Manti Te'O and CJ Mosley may not be top 10 talents, but if the choice is between them or Whitney Mercillus/Nick Perry, I'd rather choose the ILB that's going to have a more varied role in my defense and is going to be the leader of the unit. The only thing that'd make me change my mind is how deep the ILB position looks to be. If it's incredibly deep with a lot of good talents expected to fall (for instance Kendricks falling vs. Kuechly in the 1st).

coordinator0 wrote:
If you're talking about a MLB like Hightower then I agree that you should stay away from that type of guy in the first round. That's not what every MLB prospect is like though. Te'o definitely isn't that type of MLB if you're looking at the draft this year. He's definitely a MLB but not in the Hightower mold. I'm not as familiar with Mosley but it sounds like he's not either.

Well when he picked off Denard Robinson earlier in the year, he tied Alabama's school record for most returned touchdowns... this season and last season he was considered to be Alabama's most athletic LBer. Coming out of HS when he was 20 lbs lighter, Mosley ran a 4.47s in his 40 yard dash. He has great lateral ability and shows nice form tackling skills. He's probably similar athletically to Luke Kuechly, I'd say he's faster and more agile, but is less stout. He probably would be better served with another 5-10 lbs on his frame... but as Ray Lewis has shown this season, playing at a lower weight can be done.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

santiagomn8 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
santiagomn8 wrote:
Manti Te'o period

1. Scott Wright has Te'O going in the top 10 of the first round in his mock. It's only his first and isn't any guarantee, but it's unlikely that Te'O will be available for us in the draft.

2. Personally I prefer CJ Mosley to Te'O from what I've seen on tape.



I understand that Manti Te'o is a high draft pick. Can we realistically draft him most likely not is it possible maybe. I predict he goes in the early teens and i would not mind at all trading up to get him as long as its not a crazy 3 first round draft pick trade. Redskins and Falcons traded up for their guys and i kno they dont regret it. adding Te'o to this defense will get us younger faster and is a great look for the future.

And IMO only one of those were a good deal. A franchise QB is the only situation where I think a team aught to be more aggressive in trying get "their" guy. Like I stated in the Julio Jones thread over in GEN, I thought the Falcons trade could've resulted in more value had they kept their picks.

If we're trading up the only position I'm trading up for is an elite (or very good) 34 DE prospect to pair beside Ngata... It certainly wouldn't be a trade up for an ILB because generally speaking those can still be found later in the draft. Navarro Bowman, Mychal Kendricks (really wish we would have gotten him last year), DeMeco Ryans, etc... Other than the 34 DE, I'd rather just sit back and see what talent falls to us. Usually there's going to be a nice talent that falls or we're going to find a nice deal that will allow us to trade back for more value. I'm not sure what kind of talent this draft will pack, but I'm honestly starting to come more and more to the conclusion that outside of maybe the first 5-10 picks in the first round (depending on the year), the first round is rather overrated. The optimum value is the top of the 2nd round where you can still get value back (for use in later rounds) while also getting a very good player.

Ray Rice, Rob Gronkowski, Shady McCoy, Daryl Washington, Carlos Dunlap, Sean Lee, Terrance Cody, Jabaal Sheard, Andy Dalton, Brooks Reed, Kyle Rudolph, Torrey Smith, Titus Young, Mychal Kendricks, Coby Fleener, Courtney Upshaw, Cordy Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Kelechi Osemele... look at all that talent. Sure the 1st round is going to give you more elite players, but the talent gap for the most part- for teams that scout well- isn't too big IMO.

So if I can get a chance at a very good player and perhaps another very good player (late pick can turn into a Lardarius Webb or Dennis Pitta), than I'm taking my chances with the talent I can find in the 2nd round as opposed to trading up and putting all my eggs in one basket.
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