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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Shaughnessy is a solid DE against the run though and in a 4-3 team they are still needed. He'd also be a good rotation guy as a pass rusher. He's just not a specialist pass rusher and shouldn't be expect to be one.


He's also playing on the wrong side. If the Raiders acquire a pass rushing RDE, Shaughnessy could play the strong side where he belongs. If they do that and shift Houston inside to DT, I think the Raiders pass rush could be a lot better.


That would be ideal. Shaggy would be much more effective on the opposite side, and Houston would be a better pass rusher than the guys we currently have at DT.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigMike1b wrote:
Darkness wrote:
I feel bad for Palmer. He's ready to perform, but he never had a chance with Greg Knapp sabotaging the rushing attack. We can't run the ball worth a damn.


I feel worse for DMC


+1

Just watch- he is going to finally play a full season and it wont amount to anything.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professor Oak wrote:
A few more notes:

- Raiders have allowed TD on 1st drive for opponent past 3 weeks

- Raiders have allowed more points over the first four games (125) than in any year except 1961 & 1962, before the late Al Davis took over.

- Raiders opponents completing 71.5% of passes. Only 2 teams ever allowed 70% or better for season

==============================

Statistically speaking, this has been one of our worst defensive units in forever through the first 4 games.

The biggest positive statistic so far is the improvement of penalties. Almost everything else has regressed.


also we've been outscored 55-7 in the third qtr this yr
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
I didn't blame this loss squarely on Palmer, but he is a high paid QB and our offense sux, i've seen plenty of QB's overcome there OC's like Big Ben even Knapp with Vick and Garcia.


Considering Garcia had a good offensive line, an effective run game, one of the best WRs in the history of the game (in his dominant years) in T.O., and a solid defense that allowed an average of 2 TDs/game over a 2 year span I dont think Garcia really "overcame" anything. Take T.O. out of SF during those years and let JJ Stokes be the #1 guy, and that offense probably loses a TD a game. Or swap their offensive line with our current one, they lose some points. Palmer doesnt have a good line, good run game, or a #1 WR. He is throwing for enough yards to drive the field, he is limiting his turnovers enough to prevent giving the game away, the only thing he isnt doing is scoring enough TDs- thats on the entire offense. When McFadden gets 2 yards per carry, thats on McFadden and the line, not Palmer. When McFadden cant run and Knapp cant recognize that and change the plan and let Palmer open up the pass game, thats Knapp's fault, not Palmer's.

I'm not stupid, I know stats arent everything and dont tell the whole story, but its insane how anyone can point a finger at the guy completing over 61%, throwing 250 yards a game, throwing over twice as many TDs as interceptions, and only turning the ball over once every 2 games. I almost guarantee the number of his haters would be cut in half if we signed him as a FA and paid him $4M a year rather than trading picks and paying a big contract, because he is doing what QBs are supposed to do, and the rest of the offense isnt doing their part.

Look at last year: Andy Dalton completed a lower % of his passes, for a lower YPA, a worse TD-INT ratio and a lower QB rating, but they ended up in the playoffs... nevermind the fact that they had a top 10 defense. Alex Smith threw only 1 TD a game, and their offense only scored 2 TDs/game, but went to the playoffs... but they had the 2nd ranked D and ran for 130 YPG. Joe Flacco had near-identical stats to what Palmer is on pace for, but more picks and a worse completion percentage. But Ray Rice and that D carried them to the playoffs. Those guys played no better than Palmer, they didnt score a ton of points, they just played on a team that had very good defenses, were good at running the ball, and had at least decent offensive players to help keep drives going. My point is our offense's failures are not Palmer's fault. Sure, you can blame a few overthrows on him, but thats about it. When Derek Hagan and Rod Streater are on the field as your WRs, its gonna hurt your offense. When the best player on your team is cancelled out, you'll probably lose. When your team cant run the ball and the OC fails to fix it or change his game plan to suit your QB's strengths, you will lose.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
A few more notes:

- Raiders have allowed TD on 1st drive for opponent past 3 weeks

- Raiders have allowed more points over the first four games (125) than in any year except 1961 & 1962, before the late Al Davis took over.

- Raiders opponents completing 71.5% of passes. Only 2 teams ever allowed 70% or better for season

==============================

Statistically speaking, this has been one of our worst defensive units in forever through the first 4 games.

The biggest positive statistic so far is the improvement of penalties. Almost everything else has regressed.


also we've been outscored 55-7 in the third qtr this yr


I wonder how many 3 and outs we've had in the 3rd quarter so far...
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RaisinBran


Joined: 18 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Professor Oak wrote:
A few more notes:

- Raiders have allowed TD on 1st drive for opponent past 3 weeks

- Raiders have allowed more points over the first four games (125) than in any year except 1961 & 1962, before the late Al Davis took over.

- Raiders opponents completing 71.5% of passes. Only 2 teams ever allowed 70% or better for season

==============================

Statistically speaking, this has been one of our worst defensive units in forever through the first 4 games.

The biggest positive statistic so far is the improvement of penalties. Almost everything else has regressed.


also we've been outscored 55-7 in the third qtr this yr


I wonder how many 3 and outs we've had in the 3rd quarter so far...

Too many to count.
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Nodisrespect


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
I didn't blame this loss squarely on Palmer, but he is a high paid QB and our offense sux, i've seen plenty of QB's overcome there OC's like Big Ben even Knapp with Vick and Garcia.


Considering Garcia had a good offensive line, an effective run game, one of the best WRs in the history of the game (in his dominant years) in T.O., and a solid defense that allowed an average of 2 TDs/game over a 2 year span I dont think Garcia really "overcame" anything. Take T.O. out of SF during those years and let JJ Stokes be the #1 guy, and that offense probably loses a TD a game. Or swap their offensive line with our current one, they lose some points. Palmer doesnt have a good line, good run game, or a #1 WR. He is throwing for enough yards to drive the field, he is limiting his turnovers enough to prevent giving the game away, the only thing he isnt doing is scoring enough TDs- thats on the entire offense. When McFadden gets 2 yards per carry, thats on McFadden and the line, not Palmer. When McFadden cant run and Knapp cant recognize that and change the plan and let Palmer open up the pass game, thats Knapp's fault, not Palmer's.

I'm not stupid, I know stats arent everything and dont tell the whole story, but its insane how anyone can point a finger at the guy completing over 61%, throwing 250 yards a game, throwing over twice as many TDs as interceptions, and only turning the ball over once every 2 games. I almost guarantee the number of his haters would be cut in half if we signed him as a FA and paid him $4M a year rather than trading picks and paying a big contract, because he is doing what QBs are supposed to do, and the rest of the offense isnt doing their part.

Look at last year: Andy Dalton completed a lower % of his passes, for a lower YPA, a worse TD-INT ratio and a lower QB rating, but they ended up in the playoffs... nevermind the fact that they had a top 10 defense. Alex Smith threw only 1 TD a game, and their offense only scored 2 TDs/game, but went to the playoffs... but they had the 2nd ranked D and ran for 130 YPG. Joe Flacco had near-identical stats to what Palmer is on pace for, but more picks and a worse completion percentage. But Ray Rice and that D carried them to the playoffs. Those guys played no better than Palmer, they didnt score a ton of points, they just played on a team that had very good defenses, were good at running the ball, and had at least decent offensive players to help keep drives going. My point is our offense's failures are not Palmer's fault. Sure, you can blame a few overthrows on him, but thats about it. When Derek Hagan and Rod Streater are on the field as your WRs, its gonna hurt your offense. When the best player on your team is cancelled out, you'll probably lose. When your team cant run the ball and the OC fails to fix it or change his game plan to suit your QB's strengths, you will lose.


Here's the the thing we both don't know if we are getting a new OC, we don't know Mckenzie's pattern of behavior. He could scrap it all and go with a new OC or just get new cheaper players that can produce in the system.

But there are two sides to this, the majority of the best teams in this league run the WCO/ZBS and don't rely on individual players. They have systems, they lose a big time player and they still keep rolling with there depth.

I'm prepared to let every single player on this team go including McFadden for the greater good of the team. I think this is where most of us have our issue. We are still clinging to the Al Davis's model, but we are a different team.

IMO Palmer and McFadden are simply a blip in the history of this franchise. If Mike Goodson and Pryor can do better starting then that's who i want starting, i'm not a player fan, i want the team to be good.

We have a system now we need players to perform in it and its not about the name on the back of the jersey it's about the name on the helmet.

I totally get standing up for Palmer and his attempts to be successful, he is not the blame for this team not succeeding.

The problem is he has never ran the WCO and he doesn't know the idiosyncrasies, he doesn't get the overall philosophy and what he does know is not getting processed fast enough for him to be effective. Can he learn it? YES. But i'm sure you have to at least partially understand my problem with a 33 year old QB with a arm issues and a big cap number learning on the job while the team struggles.

You made a great point about SF, and that's my whole point Knapp didn't start SF's offensive scheme it way Walsh,Shannahan Mariucci, then knapp. The players they had, were prepared and well learned in idiosyncrasies of what was necessary to succeed in that system. The players had certain intangibles that fit the description of the offense. They drafted guys for years who could fit.
We don't have that.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
The problem is he has never ran the WCO and he doesn't know the idiosyncrasies, he doesn't get the overall philosophy and what he does know is not getting processed fast enough for him to be effective. Can he learn it? YES. But i'm sure you have to at least partially understand my problem with a 33 year old QB with a arm issues and a big cap number learning on the job while the team struggles.


Arm issues? Where? Learning? He's off to one of his best starts of his career and easily the best in the last 4. He's on pace to throw for 4k, 20TDs, and 8 INTs..... Maybe if he had some offensive line help, he'd probably be doing better. Just a thought? I also like how you're sitting here acting like you don't think Palmer understands the offense. That's just silly talk. If he didn't understand it, he would be playing awful now and not the best player on our offense... by far.

Palmer is EASILY the best player on our team. If you can't see it then you need more help than anyone here can offer.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
I didn't blame this loss squarely on Palmer, but he is a high paid QB and our offense sux, i've seen plenty of QB's overcome there OC's like Big Ben even Knapp with Vick and Garcia.


Considering Garcia had a good offensive line, an effective run game, one of the best WRs in the history of the game (in his dominant years) in T.O., and a solid defense that allowed an average of 2 TDs/game over a 2 year span I dont think Garcia really "overcame" anything. Take T.O. out of SF during those years and let JJ Stokes be the #1 guy, and that offense probably loses a TD a game. Or swap their offensive line with our current one, they lose some points. Palmer doesnt have a good line, good run game, or a #1 WR. He is throwing for enough yards to drive the field, he is limiting his turnovers enough to prevent giving the game away, the only thing he isnt doing is scoring enough TDs- thats on the entire offense. When McFadden gets 2 yards per carry, thats on McFadden and the line, not Palmer. When McFadden cant run and Knapp cant recognize that and change the plan and let Palmer open up the pass game, thats Knapp's fault, not Palmer's.

I'm not stupid, I know stats arent everything and dont tell the whole story, but its insane how anyone can point a finger at the guy completing over 61%, throwing 250 yards a game, throwing over twice as many TDs as interceptions, and only turning the ball over once every 2 games. I almost guarantee the number of his haters would be cut in half if we signed him as a FA and paid him $4M a year rather than trading picks and paying a big contract, because he is doing what QBs are supposed to do, and the rest of the offense isnt doing their part.

Look at last year: Andy Dalton completed a lower % of his passes, for a lower YPA, a worse TD-INT ratio and a lower QB rating, but they ended up in the playoffs... nevermind the fact that they had a top 10 defense. Alex Smith threw only 1 TD a game, and their offense only scored 2 TDs/game, but went to the playoffs... but they had the 2nd ranked D and ran for 130 YPG. Joe Flacco had near-identical stats to what Palmer is on pace for, but more picks and a worse completion percentage. But Ray Rice and that D carried them to the playoffs. Those guys played no better than Palmer, they didnt score a ton of points, they just played on a team that had very good defenses, were good at running the ball, and had at least decent offensive players to help keep drives going. My point is our offense's failures are not Palmer's fault. Sure, you can blame a few overthrows on him, but thats about it. When Derek Hagan and Rod Streater are on the field as your WRs, its gonna hurt your offense. When the best player on your team is cancelled out, you'll probably lose. When your team cant run the ball and the OC fails to fix it or change his game plan to suit your QB's strengths, you will lose.


Here's the the thing we both don't know if we are getting a new OC, we don't know Mckenzie's pattern of behavior. He could scrap it all and go with a new OC or just get new cheaper players that can produce in the system.

But there are two sides to this, the majority of the best teams in this league run the WCO/ZBS and don't rely on individual players. They have systems, they lose a big time player and they still keep rolling with there depth.

I'm prepared to let every single player on this team go including McFadden for the greater good of the team. I think this is where most of us have our issue. We are still clinging to the Al Davis's model, but we are a different team.

IMO Palmer and McFadden are simply a blip in the history of this franchise. If Mike Goodson and Pryor can do better starting then that's who i want starting, i'm not a player fan, i want the team to be good.

We have a system now we need players to perform in it and its not about the name on the back of the jersey it's about the name on the helmet.

I totally get standing up for Palmer and his attempts to be successful, he is not the blame for this team not succeeding.

The problem is he has never ran the WCO and he doesn't know the idiosyncrasies, he doesn't get the overall philosophy and what he does know is not getting processed fast enough for him to be effective. Can he learn it? YES. But i'm sure you have to at least partially understand my problem with a 33 year old QB with a arm issues and a big cap number learning on the job while the team struggles.

You made a great point about SF, and that's my whole point Knapp didn't start SF's offensive scheme it way Walsh,Shannahan Mariucci, then knapp. The players they had, were prepared and well learned in idiosyncrasies of what was necessary to succeed in that system. The players had certain intangibles that fit the description of the offense. They drafted guys for years who could fit.
We don't have that.


I agree with all that, but I was just saying right now you cant blame Palmer, and you cant bench him because nobody on the roster would do better. I am all for drafting a new QB, but because this system isnt working for Palmer and if Reggie sticks to a system then I agree- get the guys that can succeed in that system.
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Nodisrespect


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
The problem is he has never ran the WCO and he doesn't know the idiosyncrasies, he doesn't get the overall philosophy and what he does know is not getting processed fast enough for him to be effective. Can he learn it? YES. But i'm sure you have to at least partially understand my problem with a 33 year old QB with a arm issues and a big cap number learning on the job while the team struggles.


Arm issues? Where? Learning? He's off to one of his best starts of his career and easily the best in the last 4. He's on pace to throw for 4k, 20TDs, and 8 INTs..... Maybe if he had some offensive line help, he'd probably be doing better. Just a thought? I also like how you're sitting here acting like you don't think Palmer understands the offense. That's just silly talk. If he didn't understand it, he would be playing awful now and not the best player on our offense... by far.

Palmer is EASILY the best player on our team. If you can't see it then you need more help than anyone here can offer.
He's having arm issues IMO, he was flexing his arm yesterday in the game, and his accuracy is 55% in the 3rd Quarter this year. Did you no see him flexing his throwing arm yesterday or those magic black bands that are aiding him in some way. I doubt those are fashion pieces.

He's not playing awful because he is a good player, but he is limited. He is accurate and has a strong arm(in the first half). But a WCO requires different strengths, he needs to be consistent like he has cold water in his veins, he needs to get us in the best plays and he needs to convert 3rd downs even if the play sucks. Brees does that, Brady does that, even players with lesser throwing skill can run for a first on 3rd down like Campbell.

His numbers look good because he does have the skillset of a great QB but its all the other stuff besides throwing that he is not excelling in.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
He's having arm issues IMO, he was flexing his arm yesterday in the game, and his accuracy is 55% in the 3rd Quarter this year. Did you no see him flexing his throwing arm yesterday or those magic black bands that are aiding him in some way. I doubt those are fashion pieces.

He's not playing awful because he is a good player, but he is limited. He is accurate and has a strong arm(in the first half). But a WCO requires different strengths, he needs to be consistent like he has cold water in his veins, he needs to get us in the best plays and he needs to convert 3rd downs even if the play sucks. Brees does that, Brady does that, even players with lesser throwing skill can run for a first on 3rd down like Campbell.

His numbers look good because he does have the skillset of a great QB but its all the other stuff besides throwing that he is not excelling in.


I'm guessing he was flexing it b/c he was getting his butt kicked all game. I mean, it happens. You're certainly cherry picking here and badly also. While you mention his third quarter stats, you fail to mention his 4th quarters which are all good. So if he is having arm problems, is it specifically 3rd quarter arm problems? Is there a cure for that?? He doesn't seem to be having 4th quarter arm problems, so I don't know where you're going here.

I don't care if a QB isn't throwing... that's a QBs job is to throw the ball, not run around. Again, cherry picking.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Dreadymatt


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen Carson Palmer is the best player on this team right now, we should be signing him up for the next 3 years at least (he'll only be 36)
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dreadymatt wrote:
Listen Carson Palmer is the best player on this team right now, we should be signing him up for the next 3 years at least (he'll only be 36)


What the heck is this? I dont even? Rolling Eyes
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Listen Carson Palmer is the best player on this team right now, we should be signing him up for the next 3 years at least (he'll only be 36)


What the heck is this? I dont even? Rolling Eyes


"We should sign Carson to a three year extension" would be my guess.
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