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Davey


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not as much the trading up but also the trading of picks for players that didn't offer the return we were hoping. It wasn't just getting talented players for draft picks, but players with lasting power.

Kris Jenkins was an elite player for us, but he only ended up giving us one healthy season for a 3rd and 5th round pick. Braylon Edwards cost us the same thing plus some fringe players, and was only a Jet for two seasons. A 4th rounder for a single year of Brett Favre. Jenkins and Edwards weren't short term trades in terms of the plan, but they were risks that ended up backfiring. Jenkins was an injury prone player who spent over half of his three years with the Jets on IR and Edwards was an off-the-field risk that wasn't retained because he betrayed the Jets trust with the DUI. That, plus the overall weak drafting of what we did have from '08-'10 is what has us in this position.
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Harris Smith


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right about the Jenkins trade in that he ultimately couldn't stay healthy, but I don't think you can blame Tannenbaum for bringing in a player who turned out to be a revelation at a position the Jets were sorely lacking in. Yes, he was an older oversized player, but how could he have realistically forecasted he would blow out his knees in consecutive seasons? The Jenkins trade, however, also allowed Sione Pouha to develop into a quality starter, so in a sense one could also make the case that transaction was a wash.

Edwards was a gamble. He certainly paid some dividends (We're all forgetting now that the Jets made two consective Conference Championship appearances in Sanchez/Ryan's rookie and sophmore years). But, the Jets made the decision that Santonio Holmes was the more valuable receiver (that's, of course, debatable) and simply were not in a position to retain both, given the level of success both had achieved heading into contract years.

All I'm trying to say, is that IMO, I doubt the Jets missed much with their decesions to trade draft choices for good players that they needed at the time. Honestly, when you're picking at the end of the rounds, you're fortunate if you walk away with two selections who turn out to be NFL players on your roster in any given draft class.
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Davey


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just saying, I think he made the trading of building blocks for veterans, even if they were quality, too much of a habit. Reason being that even though in terms of talent they were good value, they're on the chopping block for one reason or another. Jenkins was an elite player, but he was an injury risk in Carolina and it came back to hunt us eventually, even if it was bad luck. Trading for players when it makes sense is great, Ozzie Newsome is one of the league's best GMs and he isn't afraid to make trades for veterans. But you can't dilute your draft classes year in and year out.

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Edwards was a gamble. He certainly paid some dividends (We're all forgetting now that the Jets made two consective Conference Championship appearances in Sanchez/Ryan's rookie and sophmore years). But, the Jets made the decision that Santonio Holmes was the more valuable receiver (that's, of course, debatable) and simply were not in a position to retain both, given the level of success both had achieved heading into contract years.


I'm a big supporter of Edwards and if it was up to me he would be playing for the Jets right now, but obviously the Jets brass saw things differently. I'm working a little bit on conjecture here, I can only go based on what I've been told, but Edwards' DUI was apparently a representation of a bad habit he has and something that's scared teams away. He's a really talented player, and that offseason following the lockout he should have been one of the top receivers signed, but he couldn't catch on with anybody and only San Francisco would have him back on a 1 year, 1 million "prove it" deal. I mean, the Jets could have had both Holmes and Edwards again for that value. Such a modest deal for a player with his talent is a sign that something is wrong. And if we take that as truth, than it implies that he broke the Jets' trust with off-the-field concerns and the Jets couldn't bring him back out of organizational integrity. A "we don't care what you've done, but it stops now" type of attitude, but one where the player didn't learn.

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All I'm trying to say, is that IMO, I doubt the Jets missed much with their decesions to trade draft choices for good players that they needed at the time. Honestly, when you're picking at the end of the rounds, you're fortunate if you walk away with two selections who turn out to be NFL players on your roster in any given draft class.


The draft is ultimately a game of chance to an extent, but it's the prime long-term building mechanism for a franchise. Sure not every player works out, but you can't think like that always when by the same token you can find diamonds in the rough that could be a contributor for a decade, and players in the first three rounds are all potential eventual starters. And that is something that I've think we've missed out on, if you think about it this way: since Tannenbaum has been the GM taking over in 2006, he's had literally just two drafts where the Jets have had their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks and used them. That was 2006 and this past draft. It's a simple way of thinking about it, but the Jets didn't have a 3rd rounder in 2007, didn't have a 3rd rounder in 2008, didn't have a 2nd rounder in 2009, didn't have a 2nd rounder in 2010, and didn't have a 3rd rounder in 2011. Even if some of those we can't regret at all, such as the 3rd rounder in '07, there's a lot of missed opportunities there. And that doesn't even factor the 4th and 5ths we haven't had in some drafts, and a few late round picks... not all of those players work out, but imagine if just one of them was a decent pass rusher, or a decent runner?
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Spiel612


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again it comes down to the same point and this is something that happens to a lot of general managers who fall into this trap. You start believing in your own infallibility (and this is speculation) and before you know it you've convinced yourself that you can't fail.

Well the list got longer and longer and progressively had more mistakes as the years went on. It started out as a Pete Kendall here or there, and then he'd make up for it with a Darrelle Revis or an Alan Faneca.

But then there was a Wayne Hunter. Or a Santonio Holmes. Or holding onto players and coaches for too long. Or ruining the development of the guy who was supposed to be your franchise quarterback.

Sanchez would need an Alex Smith like renaissance to turn things around, and unfortunately, Jim Harbaugh is already taken.

It's still early, but things aren't likely to change right now. This team is broken. Slightly more talented then the 2005 team that was broken and depleted, but far less worthwhile.

Honestly I'd bring Mangini back in a heartbeat, but I'd bet everything I own and everything I ever will own or earn that it would never happen.

BTW, I just looked it up. If the Jets cut Sanchez next off-season they'll eat 4.3 million. It might honestly be worth it just to keep him on the roster and bring in some competition. But at this point, I don't think anyone could complain about Mark getting cut.
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green24


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiel612 wrote:
Again it comes down to the same point and this is something that happens to a lot of general managers who fall into this trap. You start believing in your own infallibility (and this is speculation) and before you know it you've convinced yourself that you can't fail.

Well the list got longer and longer and progressively had more mistakes as the years went on. It started out as a Pete Kendall here or there, and then he'd make up for it with a Darrelle Revis or an Alan Faneca.

But then there was a Wayne Hunter. Or a Santonio Holmes. Or holding onto players and coaches for too long. Or ruining the development of the guy who was supposed to be your franchise quarterback.

Sanchez would need an Alex Smith like renaissance to turn things around, and unfortunately, Jim Harbaugh is already taken.

It's still early, but things aren't likely to change right now. This team is broken. Slightly more talented then the 2005 team that was broken and depleted, but far less worthwhile.

Honestly I'd bring Mangini back in a heartbeat, but I'd bet everything I own and everything I ever will own or earn that it would never happen.

BTW, I just looked it up. If the Jets cut Sanchez next off-season they'll eat 4.3 million. It might honestly be worth it just to keep him on the roster and bring in some competition. But at this point, I don't think anyone could complain about Mark getting cut.


How about bringing him back in a FO role? That's what I did in my mock.
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Harris Smith


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you're somewhat mistaken there. The Jets selected Kenrick Ellis in the third round of the 2011 draft, and they selected Ducasse in the second round of 2010.

The Jets traded their third in 2007 to select David Harris in the early second, their third in 2008 was for Jenkins, their second in 2010 went for Antonio Cromartie, who may be their best defensive player on the team currently.

We're going to have to agree to disagree that third round picks typically equal starting quality players. Sure, it's possible the Jets could have selected a better blocking TE, or another platoon RB with those picks in those years. Realistically though, that's about all the Jets might have landed, unless they had some cosmic insight about Victor Cruz or whoever.
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Spiel612


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
Spiel612 wrote:
Again it comes down to the same point and this is something that happens to a lot of general managers who fall into this trap. You start believing in your own infallibility (and this is speculation) and before you know it you've convinced yourself that you can't fail.

Well the list got longer and longer and progressively had more mistakes as the years went on. It started out as a Pete Kendall here or there, and then he'd make up for it with a Darrelle Revis or an Alan Faneca.

But then there was a Wayne Hunter. Or a Santonio Holmes. Or holding onto players and coaches for too long. Or ruining the development of the guy who was supposed to be your franchise quarterback.

Sanchez would need an Alex Smith like renaissance to turn things around, and unfortunately, Jim Harbaugh is already taken.

It's still early, but things aren't likely to change right now. This team is broken. Slightly more talented then the 2005 team that was broken and depleted, but far less worthwhile.

Honestly I'd bring Mangini back in a heartbeat, but I'd bet everything I own and everything I ever will own or earn that it would never happen.

BTW, I just looked it up. If the Jets cut Sanchez next off-season they'll eat 4.3 million. It might honestly be worth it just to keep him on the roster and bring in some competition. But at this point, I don't think anyone could complain about Mark getting cut.


How about bringing him back in a FO role? That's what I did in my mock.


It almost never happens that a coach who was fired rejoins the front office or coaching staff. Dave Campo is the only situation I can think of and his situation was different. He failed as a head coach. Many would argue that Mangini was unceremoniously fired because of the 2008 collapse--completely forgetting about how much help he was in building a stable locker room.

No matter what though...I don't want another first year head coach and I don't want another recycled cast-off. I don't want - Jauron or Dave Wannstedt.

I want a Bill Cowher or a Marty Schottenheimer.

And if I can't get that then the recycled cast-off better be someone who has been absolutely outstanding as a coordinator. Someone like Mike Nolan. But even still, I want an offensive coach.

Shoot, the right guy may even be on our staff right now in Tony Sparano. He deserves some accountability for this team's inability to execute, but I don't think he deserves the majority of it. In fact, I think in theory Tony Sparano could do a lot for New York.

I'm just rambling, but I'm ready for the circus to end. The circus was amusing when it worked. But now that this team looks like Bill Callahan's Oakland Raiders I'm ready to throw in the towel.
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Harris Smith


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiel612 wrote:
Again it comes down to the same point and this is something that happens to a lot of general managers who fall into this trap. You start believing in your own infallibility (and this is speculation) and before you know it you've convinced yourself that you can't fail.

Well the list got longer and longer and progressively had more mistakes as the years went on. It started out as a Pete Kendall here or there, and then he'd make up for it with a Darrelle Revis or an Alan Faneca.

But then there was a Wayne Hunter. Or a Santonio Holmes. Or holding onto players and coaches for too long. Or ruining the development of the guy who was supposed to be your franchise quarterback.

Sanchez would need an Alex Smith like renaissance to turn things around, and unfortunately, Jim Harbaugh is already taken.

It's still early, but things aren't likely to change right now. This team is broken. Slightly more talented then the 2005 team that was broken and depleted, but far less worthwhile.

Honestly I'd bring Mangini back in a heartbeat, but I'd bet everything I own and everything I ever will own or earn that it would never happen.

BTW, I just looked it up. If the Jets cut Sanchez next off-season they'll eat 4.3 million. It might honestly be worth it just to keep him on the roster and bring in some competition. But at this point, I don't think anyone could complain about Mark getting cut.


Spiel, please, give it a rest with the Eric Mangini obsession, for the love of God...
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green24


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Mangini is the defender of our pride... Wink
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Spiel612


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harris Smith wrote:
Spiel, please, give it a rest with the Eric Mangini obsession, for the love of God...


Even if it's not him, it needs to be someone with the same idea of how to build and it has to be someone who won't get to caught up in New York's win now mantra.

And call it whatever you like. I said it before, and I'll say it again, firing Eric Mangini was a mistake. I laid my reservations about Rex to rest after the way his tenure here began, but more then ever it's apparent that going from one extreme to another was a colossal mistake.
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Harris Smith


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spiel612 wrote:
Harris Smith wrote:
Spiel, please, give it a rest with the Eric Mangini obsession, for the love of God...


Even if it's not him, it needs to be someone with the same idea of how to build and it has to be someone who won't get to caught up in New York's win now mantra.

And call it whatever you like. I said it before, and I'll say it again, firing Eric Mangini was a mistake. I laid my reservations about Rex to rest after the way his tenure here began, but more then ever it's apparent that going from one extreme to another was a colossal mistake.


Davey and I are debating the results of traded draft picks, but of course, one of the underlying stories is the fact that the Jets are still dealing with the transactions that needed to be made to paper over the many mistakes that were made under the Mangini regime. He can take credit for a lot of good things, unlike other failed coaches, but that doesn't change the reality that he wasn't ready to be the head coach of the NY Jets, or any team, for that matter. The fact that he's on ESPN 2 during middays debating Skip Bayless should tell you all you need to know about how he's regarded in the world of Football.
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Spiel612


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harris Smith wrote:
Spiel612 wrote:
Harris Smith wrote:
Spiel, please, give it a rest with the Eric Mangini obsession, for the love of God...


Even if it's not him, it needs to be someone with the same idea of how to build and it has to be someone who won't get to caught up in New York's win now mantra.

And call it whatever you like. I said it before, and I'll say it again, firing Eric Mangini was a mistake. I laid my reservations about Rex to rest after the way his tenure here began, but more then ever it's apparent that going from one extreme to another was a colossal mistake.


Davey and I are debating the results of traded draft picks, but of course, one of the underlying stories is the fact that the Jets are still dealing with the transactions that needed to be made to paper over the many mistakes that were made under the Mangini regime. He can take credit for a lot of good things, unlike other failed coaches, but that doesn't change the reality that he wasn't ready to be the head coach of the NY Jets, or any team, for that matter. The fact that he's on ESPN 2 during middays debating Skip Bayless should tell you all you need to know about how he's regarded in the world of Football.


Considering he turned down offers from Tennessee and Philadelphia to work on the defensive side of the ball in the last two years I don't think he's as black listed as you think.

You picked up on the Mangini comment, which was at the bottom of my post and in there as wistful speculation--not as something I'm imagining in any way, shape, or form is going to happen. That came out as part of a ramble, and I'll happily stick by it.

The point of that whole post was about Tannenbaum and where I think he began to go wrong. You commented on Mangini. I can't help you if you want to selectively choose one thing out of a post.
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Colt45fool


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
But Mangini is the defender of our pride... Wink
Hahaha.

I always thought firing Mangini was a mistake, but I can't complain with Rex. If there's one thing Rex can do, it's coach a defense and despite Mangini being a defensive minded coach he was never able to field the dominant defenses that Rex put up. Rex can scheme his tail off and coach his butt off with the RIGHT personnel. We can't so quickly forget January 2011 when we beat Manning and Brady when no one gave us a fighting chance...or Rivers the year before. Do you guys really think Mangini wins those games? I don't think we'd have a shot in hell.

Mangini didn't deserve to be fired, but his defenses were middle of the pack. Bob Sutton as defensive coordinator was a horrible choice. Absolutely horrible.

Something that needs to be stressed is the RIGHT personnel. Rex has no business having input on the players that end up on this team. He just doesn't. The choices at first round picks the last few years have been devastating and it's showing now. Rex took a talented team...two talented teams to the AFC Championship Game that were built by Mangini. As soon as those moves started to wear off and Rex guys were brought in to cover the burdens (Jenkins, Woody, Faneca, Rhodes, etc. all leaving) the defense falls off and the offense gets even worse. I have to give credit where it's due: Mangini could build a team, but he could never scheme like Rex. Ever. Realistically this team could sit in mediocrity for years with a guy like Mangini as the head coach. With Rex I at least feel we have a fighting chance against any team. I really believe that, too.

What we really need is someone who can draft and put Rex in check. Someone to have him make the tough decisions. We always joke about Tanny being cold blooded, but Rex is just the opposite. We need someone to bench Schotty when he's out of control in his offensive game plans. These are things Rex should be taking care of, but he clearly cares too much about rustling his staff's jimmies. We need someone to tell Rex to shut the hell up when he wants to take a nickel corner in the first round, or back to back DEs...or 4th rounders at RB in back to back years that are no better than average. Someone that actually wants to go offense early on with our consistently mediocre offense so our young QB can't sit here and blame the position players for his lack of development. We need a real talent evaluator. Mangini had that ability. Rex doesn't. Give him the pieces though and we're a SB contender every year.
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rickyt31


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colt45fool wrote:
green24 wrote:
But Mangini is the defender of our pride... Wink
Hahaha.

I always thought firing Mangini was a mistake, but I can't complain with Rex. If there's one thing Rex can do, it's coach a defense and despite Mangini being a defensive minded coach he was never able to field the dominant defenses that Rex put up. Rex can scheme his tail off and coach his butt off with the RIGHT personnel. We can't so quickly forget January 2011 when we beat Manning and Brady when no one gave us a fighting chance...or Rivers the year before. Do you guys really think Mangini wins those games? I don't think we'd have a shot in hell.

Mangini didn't deserve to be fired, but his defenses were middle of the pack. Bob Sutton as defensive coordinator was a horrible choice. Absolutely horrible.

Something that needs to be stressed is the RIGHT personnel. Rex has no business having input on the players that end up on this team. He just doesn't. The choices at first round picks the last few years have been devastating and it's showing now. Rex took a talented team...two talented teams to the AFC Championship Game that were built by Mangini. As soon as those moves started to wear off and Rex guys were brought in to cover the burdens (Jenkins, Woody, Faneca, Rhodes, etc. all leaving) the defense falls off and the offense gets even worse. I have to give credit where it's due: Mangini could build a team, but he could never scheme like Rex. Ever. Realistically this team could sit in mediocrity for years with a guy like Mangini as the head coach. With Rex I at least feel we have a fighting chance against any team. I really believe that, too.

What we really need is someone who can draft and put Rex in check. Someone to have him make the tough decisions. We always joke about Tanny being cold blooded, but Rex is just the opposite. We need someone to bench Schotty when he's out of control in his offensive game plans. These are things Rex should be taking care of, but he clearly cares too much about rustling his staff's jimmies. We need someone to tell Rex to shut the hell up when he wants to take a nickel corner in the first round, or back to back DEs...or 4th rounders at RB in back to back years that are no better than average. Someone that actually wants to go offense early on with our consistently mediocre offense so our young QB can't sit here and blame the position players for his lack of development. We need a real talent evaluator. Mangini had that ability. Rex doesn't. Give him the pieces though and we're a SB contender every year.



Perfectly said dude. I agree 100%.

Rex is great when it comes to schemes & motivating, but he doesn't know how to put a team together. Thats why I want someone from Ravens or Steelers to come and take Tanny's job. They would know what players fit the best. We let a lot of talent go, and did horrible in replacing them. When Mark came, we have the #1 run offense, and #1 defense. We got rid of Jones & T-Rich, and replaced them with Connor & Greene. Connor always block the wrong man, and Greene doesn't read blocks. he just run full speed and hope he break out. We replaced his WR's every year, made it tougher to build chemistry. Then we killed the oline by losing faneca & Woody for Hunter & Slauson.

On defense, we added young guys on the Dline, but didn't fix anything else. Skipping the need for OLB's killed us. OLb's play a role in stopping the run and rushing the passer. We can't do either. So now QB's can take their time, and running backs can attack the outside.

We traded a lot of picks, so we lost depth. So to me, we just did a horrible job building. So I'm not blaming Rex & Tony's schemes , I'm blaming Tanny, Rex, and Woody for the moves that was made.
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KingOfTheHill84


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not only did trade a lot of picks but we missed a lot of value in rounds 4,5,6,7

Draft Blunders since Red came in

2009

Traded up for Shonn Greene instead of taking Michael Johnson(DE/OLB), Louis Vasquez(OG) and Mike Wallace(WR)

2010

Kyle Wilson over Rob Gronkowski(TE) and Ben Tate(RB)

Vladimir Ducasse over Jimmy Graham(TE), Morgan Burnett(S), Navorro Bowman(ILB), Aaron Hernandez(TE) and Kam Chancellor

Joe McKnight over Aaron Hernandez(TE) and Kam Chancellor(S)

John Conner over Antonio Brown(WR), Victor Cruz(WR)

2011

Wilkerson/Ellis/Powell/Kerley looks good for now

2012

Love the 1st 3 picks right now too bad the team sucks but anyway

Traded the 4th rounder and we could have drafted Ladarius Green a freak athlete at TE to develop

Late round guys we cut where we could have drafted- Aldred Morris(RB), Bryce Brown(RB) Philly loves him, Chris Polk(RB) and Vontaze Burfict(ILB) and actually used them but no we waste picks

Tanny has been [inappropriate/removed] we never have deep drafts and always miss on talent that falls late or slips out the draft
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