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Hood's injury and the play
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
making it tougher to stop the run means teams have to dedicate more resources to the run game

doing so opens up the passing game, resulting in more points.

more points >>> less points in ole' Roge's NFL


I get the thought process, but when was the rule actually changed?
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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike pierra(sp) and tony siragusa discussed this last season during the broadcast of our game against seattle. They were vague, but I got the impression that it was a new rule because the rules committee tweeked it around 2010/2011. Don't know for sure, but I think it slid by during all the defenseless player rules. Go figure.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMashMouthMike wrote:
Mike pierra(sp) and tony siragusa discussed this last season during the broadcast of our game against seattle. They were vague, but I got the impression that it was a new rule because the rules committee tweeked it around 2010/2011. Don't know for sure, but I think it slid by during all the defenseless player rules. Go figure.


Why was chop blocking ( hitting a player's knees that is already engaged high) banned? Because the players can not defense themselves and it leads to knee injuries. There is no other reason to ban that type of blocking other than to protect the players.

The chop blocking technique is a staple of zone blocking teams. I feel that they put it back in place and more teams are zone blocking than not so they saw an advantage.

I do not have any experience at even the college level in football other than a fan and student of the game and I could see right away what this would do. I have a very hard time believing that the coaches and owners on the competition committee did not know what they were doing as well.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
SMashMouthMike wrote:
Mike pierra(sp) and tony siragusa discussed this last season during the broadcast of our game against seattle. They were vague, but I got the impression that it was a new rule because the rules committee tweeked it around 2010/2011. Don't know for sure, but I think it slid by during all the defenseless player rules. Go figure.


Why was chop blocking ( hitting a player's knees that is already engaged high) banned? Because the players can not defense themselves and it leads to knee injuries. There is no other reason to ban that type of blocking other than to protect the players.

The chop blocking technique is a staple of zone blocking teams. I feel that they put it back in place and more teams are zone blocking than not so they saw an advantage.

I do not have any experience at even the college level in football other than a fan and student of the game and I could see right away what this would do. I have a very hard time believing that the coaches and owners on the competition committee did not know what they were doing as well.


I'm sorry to be persistent, and not trying to be a #### here, but when did they put it back in place?

I'm asking because I can't find any reference to a change in the rules in recent years mentioned anywhere.

If the rule has not been altered, I'm wondering why the 2 gap system was successful previously.

Just trying to figure out what has actually changed.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:


1. It used to be illegal. couldnt' block a dude below the waist who was already engaged

2. it was changed right before 2011, and the Ravens took advantage of that, especially against Casey
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
SMashMouthMike wrote:
Mike pierra(sp) and tony siragusa discussed this last season during the broadcast of our game against seattle. They were vague, but I got the impression that it was a new rule because the rules committee tweeked it around 2010/2011. Don't know for sure, but I think it slid by during all the defenseless player rules. Go figure.


Why was chop blocking ( hitting a player's knees that is already engaged high) banned? Because the players can not defense themselves and it leads to knee injuries. There is no other reason to ban that type of blocking other than to protect the players.

The chop blocking technique is a staple of zone blocking teams. I feel that they put it back in place and more teams are zone blocking than not so they saw an advantage.

I do not have any experience at even the college level in football other than a fan and student of the game and I could see right away what this would do. I have a very hard time believing that the coaches and owners on the competition committee did not know what they were doing as well.


I'm sorry to be persistent, and not trying to be a #### here, but when did they put it back in place?

I'm asking because I can't find any reference to a change in the rules in recent years mentioned anywhere.

If the rule has not been altered, I'm wondering why the 2 gap system was successful previously.

Just trying to figure out what has actually changed.


kethnaab nailed it with the 2011 change. IIRC It was banned in the late 90s or early 2000s. Before Casey Hampton came into the league. Steelers played more 1 gap NT before that. 2-gap is not practical with the chop block.
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treat88


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
treat88 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
SMashMouthMike wrote:
Mike pierra(sp) and tony siragusa discussed this last season during the broadcast of our game against seattle. They were vague, but I got the impression that it was a new rule because the rules committee tweeked it around 2010/2011. Don't know for sure, but I think it slid by during all the defenseless player rules. Go figure.


Why was chop blocking ( hitting a player's knees that is already engaged high) banned? Because the players can not defense themselves and it leads to knee injuries. There is no other reason to ban that type of blocking other than to protect the players.

The chop blocking technique is a staple of zone blocking teams. I feel that they put it back in place and more teams are zone blocking than not so they saw an advantage.

I do not have any experience at even the college level in football other than a fan and student of the game and I could see right away what this would do. I have a very hard time believing that the coaches and owners on the competition committee did not know what they were doing as well.


I'm sorry to be persistent, and not trying to be a #### here, but when did they put it back in place?

I'm asking because I can't find any reference to a change in the rules in recent years mentioned anywhere.

If the rule has not been altered, I'm wondering why the 2 gap system was successful previously.

Just trying to figure out what has actually changed.


kethnaab nailed it with the 2011 change. IIRC It was banned in the late 90s or early 2000s. Before Casey Hampton came into the league. Steelers played more 1 gap NT before that. 2-gap is not practical with the chop block.


Do you possibly have a reference for that?

I can't find a thing about it in the 2011 rule changes...or 2010, 2009, 2008...etc....or about it ever being banned at the NFL level except on kickoffs.

I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that, on designed running plays, if the player is no more than 1 position away, i.e. C/G or G/T, this type of block has always been legal and that no changes to the rule have been made recently.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is from a 2004 article in Denver ( home of the illegal chop block)
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/31/Sports/Stop_the_chop_Broncos.shtml

Quote:
BLOCKS OF CONTROVERSY
When Broncos right tackle George Foster's cut block broke the left ankle of Cincinnati defensive tackle Tony Williams on Monday night, it set off a debate about ethical blocking in the NFL. In layman's terms, here are the rules:

Cut block: If done properly, it is legal. It occurs when the offensive player blocks the defender below the waist and tries to knock the defender off his feet or impede his movement. Foster's block on Williams was a cut block, but a number of Bengals players called it a dirty tactic.

Chop block: It's illegal and can cost the blocker up to $20,000 in fines. A chop block occurs when a defensive lineman is engaged with a blocker, and another blocker comes in and takes out the defender's legs. It not only is illegal, it's dangerous, because it can tear ligaments or fracture a leg.


that is 2004


The NFL web site on player safety: http://www.nflevolution.com/nfl-timeline/index.html#years-1990s


Quote:

1996 - 1999
Chop Block

1996: On running plays, a chop block is prohibited by an offensive player who is aligned more than one position away from the engaged defender when the block occurs away from the flow of the play. A defender cannot be chopped even after he has disengaged from an offensive opponent, if he is still confronting the offensive player.

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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/season_preview_2008_rules_changes.html

This is the college rule. I've read that they have been illegal since 1980 in college.
I'm having trouble finding the history of the chop block rule in the NFL. Mike Pereria stated that the rules committee believed that the defender had a chance to at least see the chop block coming if it was from the player next to the blocker engaged high.
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treat88


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
This is from a 2004 article in Denver ( home of the illegal chop block)
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/31/Sports/Stop_the_chop_Broncos.shtml

Quote:
BLOCKS OF CONTROVERSY
When Broncos right tackle George Foster's cut block broke the left ankle of Cincinnati defensive tackle Tony Williams on Monday night, it set off a debate about ethical blocking in the NFL. In layman's terms, here are the rules:

Cut block: If done properly, it is legal. It occurs when the offensive player blocks the defender below the waist and tries to knock the defender off his feet or impede his movement. Foster's block on Williams was a cut block, but a number of Bengals players called it a dirty tactic.

Chop block: It's illegal and can cost the blocker up to $20,000 in fines. A chop block occurs when a defensive lineman is engaged with a blocker, and another blocker comes in and takes out the defender's legs. It not only is illegal, it's dangerous, because it can tear ligaments or fracture a leg.


that is 2004


The NFL web site on player safety: http://www.nflevolution.com/nfl-timeline/index.html#years-1990s


Quote:

1996 - 1999
Chop Block

1996: On running plays, a chop block is prohibited by an offensive player who is aligned more than one position away from the engaged defender when the block occurs away from the flow of the play. A defender cannot be chopped even after he has disengaged from an offensive opponent, if he is still confronting the offensive player.


But, see, again there is no source that indicates this rule has been recently changed.

That 1996 definition you provided is nearly verbatim to the definition used for a chop block today in the 2012 rule book.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the matter, but it appears to me that the rule has not changed for an extended period....if ever.

Apparently teams have always been able to legally cut bock a DL as long as it comes from an adjacent player and on a running play. It does not become an illegal chop block unless it comes from more than 1 spot away or on a passing play.

The block Yanda used on Hampton that started the discussion last season right up to the block used on Hood this past weekend appear to have been legal blocks since the days of Noll and Landry and ever since having never been made illegal at any point.

Something may very well have been changed in this rule that I simply can't find or I'm not smart enough to pick up on, but until there's some type of valid source that demonstrates when the rule was altered and how it was altered....I'm not buying that it was altered. Based on what I can find, I don't think the league is targeting 2 gap teams in the interest of putting points on the board at all.

I think most of this debate comes from a fundamental misunderstanding that cut blocks are legal on running plays but not on passing plays. Hell yes they are dirty, but they've apparently always been legal.
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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might be right about a lot of this treat. I can not find any explicit change in the rule either, but then again - not only aren't any 1970 rule books readily available, but looking at the language in the rule itself, listening to the former head official of the NFL lose a debate to Tony Siragusa, and knowing the biased history of the Rules Committee, is there any other reasonable explanation? After all, I remember defenses frowning upon this type of blocking when I was a little kid.
Quote:

Based on what I can find, I don't think the league is targeting 2 gap teams in the interest of putting points on the board at all.


Agree. They are targeting the run defense of 2 gap defenses specifically, not points in this instance. I can not find good proof of this, but some evidence is there. How else does one explain the penalty of going low at the QB's plant leg being a personal foul when this is not? You'd almost have to favor offensive football, rather than defensive, no?
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treat88


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMashMouthMike wrote:
You might be right about a lot of this treat. I can not find any explicit change in the rule either, but then again - not only aren't any 1970 rule books readily available, but looking at the language in the rule itself, listening to the former head official of the NFL lose a debate to Tony Siragusa, and knowing the biased history of the Rules Committee, is there any other reasonable explanation? After all, I remember defenses frowning upon this type of blocking when I was a little kid.
Quote:

Based on what I can find, I don't think the league is targeting 2 gap teams in the interest of putting points on the board at all.


Agree. They are targeting the run defense of 2 gap defenses specifically, not points in this instance. I can not find good proof of this, but some evidence is there. How else does one explain the penalty of going low at the QB's plant leg being a personal foul when this is not? You'd almost have to favor offensive football, rather than defensive, no?


What evidence is there that the rule was ever changed to make cut blocking as described illegal and then reversed? I'm not sure that just because Yanda cut Snack and Steeler players and fans were unhappy that that alone constitutes evidence of a rule change.

The second part of the bolded is kind of what got me thinking about this. In this era of player safety, it would have been big news if a rule had been altered to allow unsafe, and previously illegal methods of blocking.

It's a dirty play when the cut blocker rolls up a guy's leg, and has been considered dirty since the inception of the ZBS that made the technique prominent....but I don't think that, as we've described it above, this technique has ever been illegal....hence I don't think the league has done anything to target any specific type of defense, 2 gap or otherwise.
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Bobikus


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's legal because "player safety" doesn't apply to defensive player nearly as much as it does to skill positions.
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3rivers


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobikus wrote:
It's legal because "player safety" doesn't apply to defensive player nearly as much as it does to skill positions.


sums it up, and sounds like discrimination and hypocrisy .

NFL -> phony business men under the spell of a greedy clown named goodell
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is legal it is comical. Why would they change such a thing to be allowed? If player safety is of such great interest nowadays, why change a rule regarding double engagement high and low into anything other than illegal across the board. Stupid rule change.

And I'm a Raider fan, I do not like seeing Willie Smith or any of my players playing like that. Win your damn block, one on one, or get beat by a better player. The Broncos did this for 15 years under Shanahan. Consistently cheap.
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