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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tytalton wrote:
Quote:
and he has helped us win more games than hes helped us lost


That is an interesting point - I think you are probably right. Lots of big catches but lots of plays where he has blown the game for us when a catch could have iced it. I think yes, he has helped us win more games but I don't know that it is by any wide margin. I think he has won/blown games something like 60-40 maybe?

And the blocking is something I just do not see out of him - pass blocking, chipping, run blocking. I don't see it. Maybe he is average to above average at it but nothing stands out to me with him.

I could easily see a veteran or something like a 3rd round TE come in and outplay him down the road. The guy just baffles me....


Do you not think if he was that easy to replace that Mayhew would have done so?

I'm not sure what your watching or how you grade his blocking but it certainly isn't a problem for him. The only TE I see that is better at pass blocking is Witten. He isn't as effective at run blocking as he needs to improve at changing the defenders direction but it certainly isn't a weakness in his game.
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tytalton


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]I'm not sure what your watching or how you grade his blocking but it certainly isn't a problem for him. The only TE I see that is better at pass blocking is Witten. He isn't as effective at run blocking as he needs to improve at changing the defenders direction but it certainly isn't a weakness in his game.
[/quote]

Remember - third round TE is nothing to sneeze at - not alot of positional value at that position so it isn't a position that is drafted very high. A third round TE could come in and be very productive....

I think when I wrote that I was meaning more of seeing the 'outstanding' type of blocking by Pettigrew that he was billed as being able to provide. Not necessarily bad but nothing to write home about.

Regardless - I don't see that kind of blocking. I'd rate it average to approaching above average but I don't see him being second to Witten or anything. Especially with the size he has I don't see anything outstanding out of him as a blocker.
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RyanFuller003


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Friend wrote:
For all of Brandons faults, can you really name 15-20 TEs that are better than him? I can't.

I tried, and I guess no, I can't. Without any debate, I think we can all agree on the following at least:

1) Gronkowski
2) Hernandez
3) Graham
4) Vernon Davis
5) Gates
6) Witten
7) Gonzalez

The next several guys are kind of a tier of players that are either inconsistent, not particularly productive, or play niche roles (i.e. they're almost exclusively used as receivers or as blockers):

Heath Miller (usually a blocker, shows up in red zone situations)

Martellus Bennett (hasn't been productive until this year because of Witten, but he's playing really well)

Dennis Pitta (is potentially in the midst of a breakout season; we'll see if it holds. He's a solid all-around player though)

Jermichael Finley (ultra-talented as a receiver; prone to mental lapses)

Brent Celek (inconsistent, but a very talented receiver)

Greg Olsen (talented receiver)

Owen Daniels (good receiver who doesn't get a ton of looks because Houston runs all day; gets hurt too much)

Kyle Rudolph (shows up big in the red zone, at least so far this year)

Jared Cook (receiver-type speed, could be the next Vernon Davis)

Fred Davis (good receiver)

Marcedes Lewis (great blocker, inconsistent receiver--although I think a lot of that owes to subpar QB play)

I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanFuller003 wrote:
I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.

He isn't elite now, but I have to ask: if he cleaned up the drops and emerged as a dominant blocker, he would creep into that category. Most fans will disagree, because most fans feed TEs have to be dominant offensive weapons to be "elite", but a dominant blocker and sure-handed, big-bodied size mismatch would be just as valuable.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.

He isn't elite now, but I have to ask: if he cleaned up the drops and emerged as a dominant blocker, he would creep into that category. Most fans will disagree, because most fans feed TEs have to be dominant offensive weapons to be "elite", but a dominant blocker and sure-handed, big-bodied size mismatch would be just as valuable.


If he stopped dropping the ball and became an elite blocker he would easily be elite. Problem is we have been waiting for both of thos things to happen for 4 years and neither has. Hell, one of the two would put him ahead of a lot of those second tier guys listed. But big drops in big situations have always plagued Grew and I am getting tired of waiting and hearing the same excuses for him every year.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.

He isn't elite now, but I have to ask: if he cleaned up the drops and emerged as a dominant blocker, he would creep into that category. Most fans will disagree, because most fans feed TEs have to be dominant offensive weapons to be "elite", but a dominant blocker and sure-handed, big-bodied size mismatch would be just as valuable.


If he stopped dropping the ball and became an elite blocker he would easily be elite. Problem is we have been waiting for both of thos things to happen for 4 years and neither has. Hell, one of the two would put him ahead of a lot of those second tier guys listed. But big drops in big situations have always plagued Grew and I am getting tired of waiting and hearing the same excuses for him every year.

I can understand that.

It doesn't appear that the organization is tired of it, though, so I feel that he'll have ample time to either rid himself of the drops, or solidify himself as "one of the second tier guys". Either way, I think he provides a great benefit to this team.
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RyanFuller003


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.

He isn't elite now, but I have to ask: if he cleaned up the drops and emerged as a dominant blocker, he would creep into that category. Most fans will disagree, because most fans feed TEs have to be dominant offensive weapons to be "elite", but a dominant blocker and sure-handed, big-bodied size mismatch would be just as valuable.


If he stopped dropping the ball and became an elite blocker he would easily be elite. Problem is we have been waiting for both of thos things to happen for 4 years and neither has. Hell, one of the two would put him ahead of a lot of those second tier guys listed. But big drops in big situations have always plagued Grew and I am getting tired of waiting and hearing the same excuses for him every year.

Pettigrew is 27 . . . he's not likely to improve too much at this point. He's in his prime right now, so if anything I'd expect his play to decline after the next year or two.

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
It doesn't appear that the organization is tired of it, though, so I feel that he'll have ample time to either rid himself of the drops, or solidify himself as "one of the second tier guys". Either way, I think he provides a great benefit to this team.

Don't get me wrong, he is one of those "second-tier" guys. It's mostly just about whether or not you're happy about the fact that the team used a top-20 pick on a second-tier player. And I know at this point the pick is a sunk cost, so who cares where he was picked, but it's always going to color one's perception of him.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.

He isn't elite now, but I have to ask: if he cleaned up the drops and emerged as a dominant blocker, he would creep into that category. Most fans will disagree, because most fans feed TEs have to be dominant offensive weapons to be "elite", but a dominant blocker and sure-handed, big-bodied size mismatch would be just as valuable.


If he stopped dropping the ball and became an elite blocker he would easily be elite. Problem is we have been waiting for both of thos things to happen for 4 years and neither has. Hell, one of the two would put him ahead of a lot of those second tier guys listed. But big drops in big situations have always plagued Grew and I am getting tired of waiting and hearing the same excuses for him every year.

I can understand that.

It doesn't appear that the organization is tired of it, though, so I feel that he'll have ample time to either rid himself of the drops, or solidify himself as "one of the second tier guys". Either way, I think he provides a great benefit to this team.


I think his role is a benefit to the team, not so sure he is. We havent looked to replace him because he is not horrible, he is under contract, and he knows the system. I think our staff likes him due to some stubborness as well in that they drafted him so highly with an early pick and since Grew hasnt been awful all the time, they dont have to admit their mistake. Are there any WAR stats for football? It would be interesting what grews WAR is because i dont think it is very high.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanFuller003 wrote:
Pettigrew is 27 . . . he's not likely to improve too much at this point. He's in his prime right now, so if anything I'd expect his play to decline after the next year or two.

I don't really agree here: blocking is something that often improves with age, strength gain and experience.

Do you think it's possible that Pettigrew actually has great hands, but also has lapses in concentration? And that the experience in dealing with game situations could lead to fewer of those concentration drops?

RyanFuller003 wrote:
It's mostly just about whether or not you're happy about the fact that the team used a top-20 pick on a second-tier player. And I know at this point the pick is a sunk cost, so who cares where he was picked, but it's always going to color one's perception of him.

I want players that play well. Pettigrew does that, so I absolutely think he was worth the pick.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To this point, he absolutely not worth a 1rd pick. He was worth a pick. That is all. A 1rd TE absolutely should be a top 5 TE. IMO even better, especially considering the available players that year, but I think top 5 is very reasonable and there is no case that can be made that he is a top 5 TE in this league.

He is very average. As I said before, there are probably about 12-14 starting TEs better than him overall and 12-14 that he is better than. In a league of 32 starting TEs, that is the definition of average. And an average TE can be had in the 3rd or so pretty regularly.

No sense in replacing him right now because he is average, he is under contract, and he should still develop at least a little. We have bigger fish to fry at this point. We have several positions that are below average. But I certainly wouldn't be willing to pay a big contract to him when the time comes. The type of contract a 1rd TE would assumedly deserve.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
A 1rd TE absolutely should be a top 5 TE.

You mean "top 5 ability-wise" or "one of the top 5 players at his position"?

Serious question.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanFuller003 wrote:
Louis Friend wrote:
For all of Brandons faults, can you really name 15-20 TEs that are better than him? I can't.

I tried, and I guess no, I can't. Without any debate, I think we can all agree on the following at least:

1) Gronkowski
2) Hernandez
3) Graham
4) Vernon Davis
5) Gates
6) Witten
7) Gonzalez

The next several guys are kind of a tier of players that are either inconsistent, not particularly productive, or play niche roles (i.e. they're almost exclusively used as receivers or as blockers):

Heath Miller (usually a blocker, shows up in red zone situations)

Martellus Bennett (hasn't been productive until this year because of Witten, but he's playing really well)

Dennis Pitta (is potentially in the midst of a breakout season; we'll see if it holds. He's a solid all-around player though)

Jermichael Finley (ultra-talented as a receiver; prone to mental lapses)

Brent Celek (inconsistent, but a very talented receiver)

Greg Olsen (talented receiver)

Owen Daniels (good receiver who doesn't get a ton of looks because Houston runs all day; gets hurt too much)

Kyle Rudolph (shows up big in the red zone, at least so far this year)

Jared Cook (receiver-type speed, could be the next Vernon Davis)

Fred Davis (good receiver)

Marcedes Lewis (great blocker, inconsistent receiver--although I think a lot of that owes to subpar QB play)

I think you can make a case for all of those guys being better than Pettigrew, or you could just as easily make a case for Pettigrew being better than all of them. People are still having a hard time overlooking his draft spot. TEs taken in the first round are a rarity these days, and if you pick one there, you have to hope they become elite players. No one can possibly make the case that Pettigrew is an elite TE, so that's disappointing to a lot of people.


The only player of the secondary group listed that I might put ahead of Grew is Mercedes Lewis.

Grading TE's is difficult especially in the case of Detroit because they use the TE differently than a number of other teams. Most of the TE's people covet are really closer to a converted WR than a true TE. Grew is an every down TE that certainly has weaknesses but he can do everything.

One overlooked stat with Grew is fumbles. I know the strip this week was awful but last season he didn't have a fumble.

Grew is also very under rated by this forum when it comes to blocking. I'm to lazy to look it up but I believe he only allowed one pressure last year.

I keep repeating this but there is a reason Grew receives the second most looks on the team. Obviously Linehan and Schwartz like the game he plays.

Scheffler certainly is no slouch but isn't an every down TE. Given his speed and athletic ability he is much closer to the style of TE the fans seem to value.

As for Grew's draft position, I really don't see how that matters at this point in time. If fans continue to hold that against him then why aren't they holding it against other players that aren't living up to their draft position?

Personally I'm much more concerned about the play of Stafford, Suh and Fairley given their draft position and salaries.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
A 1rd TE absolutely should be a top 5 TE.

You mean "top 5 ability-wise" or "one of the top 5 players at his position"?

Serious question.

Actually a fair and good question. One that has me thinking.

I think it may be inconsequential though. Because the TEs ahead of him that he surpasses in ability might be matched by the ones behind him that would surpass him. Marcedes Lewis for example I believe has the ability to be much better than Grew does.

Fair question though and I will have to think on it a bit.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
RyanFuller003 wrote:
Pettigrew is 27 . . . he's not likely to improve too much at this point. He's in his prime right now, so if anything I'd expect his play to decline after the next year or two.

I don't really agree here: blocking is something that often improves with age, strength gain and experience.

Do you think it's possible that Pettigrew actually has great hands, but also has lapses in concentration? And that the experience in dealing with game situations could lead to fewer of those concentration drops?

RyanFuller003 wrote:
It's mostly just about whether or not you're happy about the fact that the team used a top-20 pick on a second-tier player. And I know at this point the pick is a sunk cost, so who cares where he was picked, but it's always going to color one's perception of him.

I want players that play well. Pettigrew does that, so I absolutely think he was worth the pick.


TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
A 1rd TE absolutely should be a top 5 TE.

You mean "top 5 ability-wise" or "one of the top 5 players at his position"?

Serious question.

There's a lot of good tight ends in the league right now, so while I don't necessarily think it's fair to expect him to develop into one of the top five TEs in the league, I think you should at least be able to compare him to the better throwback types of TE in the league. I mean the types that are both blockers and receivers, not necessarily the Hernandez, Graham, or Gates types that are going to put up big numbers, but can't stand up to the challenge of blocking.

Vernon Davis came in as an athlete that had to learn how to be an in-line TE, and he's become a great blocker in time while still maintaining his skills as a downfield receiver. Witten came in primarily as a blocker, and he's developed into not only a great route runner, but also a player that you have to respect after the catch because he powers through defenders. Gronkowski is also a complete tight end, and while his blocking isn't superb, it's very good and more importantly, he puts up elite WR numbers to boot.

Pettigrew is a lot closer to Heath Miller, Daniel Graham, or Marcedes Lewis (all of whom were also first-round picks). He plays every down, but unlike the three aforementioned players, Pettigrew plays in a pass-heavy offense so he gets more catches.

I don't think he's top five ability-wise or production-wise. Pettigrew was drafted so early because of his maturity; he wasn't some project that would need to learn how to block better, or someone like Jared Cook who was never productive but had athletic talent. He pretty much came into the NFL as a polished NFL tight end. He made a serious improvement from year 1 to year 2, but since then, he's not really taken a step forward. He's still the committing penalties and drops that have frustrated fans since he was drafted, and he's still catching nothing but short passes and producing very little yards after the catch.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The unbelievably frustrating part for me is that I do believe Grew has the skills to be one of the elite TEs, he just gets in his own way too often with boneheaded plays and lapses in concentration, often at the worst possible times.
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