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Too early for draft talk but I have a question
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JCool333


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talent. Draft any players who can be great, and as the draft progresses, settle for good, solid, and special team contributors. Whatever our needs end up being, we'd benefit from a great player at any position. Whoever looks like he'll be the best fit in the NFL is who you take.
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cddolphin


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
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Location: Gainesville, FL
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCool333 wrote:
Talent. Draft any players who can be great, and as the draft progresses, settle for good, solid, and special team contributors. Whatever our needs end up being, we'd benefit from a great player at any position. Whoever looks like he'll be the best fit in the NFL is who you take.


BPA all the way, the one exception to the rule being QB.

I don't like the whole 1st round WR, 2nd round we take a DE, 3rd round we take a S because that's the order of our needs. I think it's a dumb way to draft. If you're in the 2nd round and the best player on the board is a OG with let's say a A- rating, why draft a B- DE just because it fills a need? That's what FA is for.

If you draft BPA, in 3-5 drafts you will have a team full of studs.

"But cddolphin, if the best player available is a RB (for example) and we already have Bush and Miller, why would we draft another one?"

Because having too many good players is a great problem to have. I would never sacrifice talent for filling a positional need.
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Russ57


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see some discussion. Many good points have come up.

Trading Long is always going to a polarizing topic. Only way I'd do it is for a VERY high first round pick, two first round picks, or a first round pick and a skilled position starter. Trading a first over all pick that has made the pro bowl every year and proved he can play hurt....for a second round pick????? No, I can't sign off on that.

Yes we need to be looking a few years ahead. Still I think we do need to resign our good players. Many guys can contribute for ten years. Especially guys on the line and ride Starks until the wheels fell off. Also agree that I'd trade Wake before Long.

No doubt we need WR's. Bess is the only guy I really like and he is being paid a lot for a slot WR. Hartline is okay for depth if cheap enough. Simply put every guy we have could go away in the next couple/few years and I'd be fine with it. Ditto on TE's IMHO. Fasano is quality depth but not starter material for the future.

I'd keep our D-line and hope to upgrade Odrick. I'd keep our O-line and hope to upgrade guards.

I don't think Bush will give us a discount and I don't like Thomas so I'd look to replace both. We need to think about replacements for Dansby and Burnett down the road. They cost too much but are too good, and too much of a cap hit, to let them walk now.

Our DB's need almost as much help as our WR's. Wouldn't hurt my feelings in every one of them was gone in four years. Maybe Smith will prove he is worth keeping around. Jones shows some promise too.

So I wouldn't mind a brusier back like Le'von Bell and hope Miller can replace Bush. We can string Thomas along until his contract is up or trade him if given a chance.

A terrific FS could make a big impact for this team. Think how long TE's and big plays have killed us. Can Eric Reid by what the Raven's or Steeler's safety has been for them? Robert Woods looks to be the WR to beat. But would you take a flyer on Da'Rick Rogers if you could get him in the 3rd or later round?
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SUG


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6809
Location: Alameda, Ca
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
Glad to see some discussion. Many good points have come up.

Trading Long is always going to a polarizing topic. Only way I'd do it is for a VERY high first round pick, two first round picks, or a first round pick and a skilled position starter. Trading a first over all pick that has made the pro bowl every year and proved he can play hurt....for a second round pick????? No, I can't sign off on that.

Yes we need to be looking a few years ahead. Still I think we do need to resign our good players. Many guys can contribute for ten years. Especially guys on the line and ride Starks until the wheels fell off. Also agree that I'd trade Wake before Long.

No doubt we need WR's. Bess is the only guy I really like and he is being paid a lot for a slot WR. Hartline is okay for depth if cheap enough. Simply put every guy we have could go away in the next couple/few years and I'd be fine with it. Ditto on TE's IMHO. Fasano is quality depth but not starter material for the future.

I'd keep our D-line and hope to upgrade Odrick. I'd keep our O-line and hope to upgrade guards.

I don't think Bush will give us a discount and I don't like Thomas so I'd look to replace both. We need to think about replacements for Dansby and Burnett down the road. They cost too much but are too good, and too much of a cap hit, to let them walk now.

Our DB's need almost as much help as our WR's. Wouldn't hurt my feelings in every one of them was gone in four years. Maybe Smith will prove he is worth keeping around. Jones shows some promise too.

So I wouldn't mind a brusier back like Le'von Bell and hope Miller can replace Bush. We can string Thomas along until his contract is up or trade him if given a chance.

A terrific FS could make a big impact for this team. Think how long TE's and big plays have killed us. Can Eric Reid by what the Raven's or Steeler's safety has been for them? Robert Woods looks to be the WR to beat. But would you take a flyer on Da'Rick Rogers if you could get him in the 3rd or later round?


So, you are OK with resigning a guy at 50+ Mill who is struggling in the new scheme & your willing to
resign him for that much $$$ knowing he's hurt ???

Hmmm ... let me think about that for a minute ...???
Yeah - NO !!!

You are willing to risk generating the best possible trade (a return value) for the Dolphins vs
holding out for a 1st rnd pk thus painting yourself in a corner to either resign an injured LOT @ 50+ Mill or
simply letting him walk away and getting nothing in return ??? Nada / Zilch !!!

Bro ... the bulk of his contract has already been paid.
We would simply be extending the 1st rnd pk we spent on him five yrs ago for 4 more yrs at a 60% discount !!!

You could draft a high quality LOT that fits our scheme better & pay him 60% LESS & still have plenty of
money left over to bring in another quality FA - OL!!!

Why should we be so greedy and risk walking away with nothing or be on the hook over 1 player/50 Mill vs
acquiring 2 players for the price of 1 under the new salary cap rules ???

sug
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ViolentMonk71


Joined: 06 May 2005
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Location: Don Shula's front porch
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCool333 wrote:
Talent. Draft any players who can be great, and as the draft progresses, settle for good, solid, and special team contributors. Whatever our needs end up being, we'd benefit from a great player at any position. Whoever looks like he'll be the best fit in the NFL is who you take.


This....trying to find that guy to fill a need when the team has as little "big time" talent as it does is pointless....get the best players you can and begin to build around them....trying to fill needs (especially with top tier picks) is a waste...settling for a player that is "needed" over a potential star will continue the cycle of mediocrity/suck.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUG wrote:
Russ57 wrote:
Glad to see some discussion. Many good points have come up.

Trading Long is always going to a polarizing topic. Only way I'd do it is for a VERY high first round pick, two first round picks, or a first round pick and a skilled position starter. Trading a first over all pick that has made the pro bowl every year and proved he can play hurt....for a second round pick????? No, I can't sign off on that.

Yes we need to be looking a few years ahead. Still I think we do need to resign our good players. Many guys can contribute for ten years. Especially guys on the line and ride Starks until the wheels fell off. Also agree that I'd trade Wake before Long.

No doubt we need WR's. Bess is the only guy I really like and he is being paid a lot for a slot WR. Hartline is okay for depth if cheap enough. Simply put every guy we have could go away in the next couple/few years and I'd be fine with it. Ditto on TE's IMHO. Fasano is quality depth but not starter material for the future.

I'd keep our D-line and hope to upgrade Odrick. I'd keep our O-line and hope to upgrade guards.

I don't think Bush will give us a discount and I don't like Thomas so I'd look to replace both. We need to think about replacements for Dansby and Burnett down the road. They cost too much but are too good, and too much of a cap hit, to let them walk now.

Our DB's need almost as much help as our WR's. Wouldn't hurt my feelings in every one of them was gone in four years. Maybe Smith will prove he is worth keeping around. Jones shows some promise too.

So I wouldn't mind a brusier back like Le'von Bell and hope Miller can replace Bush. We can string Thomas along until his contract is up or trade him if given a chance.

A terrific FS could make a big impact for this team. Think how long TE's and big plays have killed us. Can Eric Reid by what the Raven's or Steeler's safety has been for them? Robert Woods looks to be the WR to beat. But would you take a flyer on Da'Rick Rogers if you could get him in the 3rd or later round?


So, you are OK with resigning a guy at 50+ Mill who is struggling in the new scheme & your willing to
resign him for that much $$$ knowing he's hurt ???

Hmmm ... let me think about that for a minute ...???
Yeah - NO !!!

You are willing to risk generating the best possible trade (a return value) for the Dolphins vs
holding out for a 1st rnd pk thus painting yourself in a corner to either resign an injured LOT @ 50+ Mill or
simply letting him walk away and getting nothing in return ??? Nada / Zilch !!!

Bro ... the bulk of his contract has already been paid.
We would simply be extending the 1st rnd pk we spent on him five yrs ago for 4 more yrs at a 60% discount !!!

You could draft a high quality LOT that fits our scheme better & pay him 60% LESS & still have plenty of
money left over to bring in another quality FA - OL!!!

Why should we be so greedy and risk walking away with nothing or be on the hook over 1 player/50 Mill vs
acquiring 2 players for the price of 1 under the new salary cap rules ???

sug



You can't roll out Martin in his 2nd year and a rookie on the other side.

Tannhill will get killed and the project will fall apart. It won't matter who's running the ball or who we have at WR because we'll go 3-and-out on every drive with Tannehill eventually getting decapitated.

Plus...even if you did that you'd be stuck with Incognito and Jerry who are bigger problems performance-wise than Jake Long.

Yeah, I said it...I'll put money on Jake Long in this offense before I will either of the Guards we currently have. If you go on some wild goose chase trying to find the LT of your dreams you'll face the crushing realization that you never gave yourself the opportunity to develop interior guys who can pass protect, run block and pull.

What's your solution? Buy them in FA? Talk about a genius way of developing continuity, save money and creating a long-term answer!

Yeah, FA ain't the answer we're looking for anywhere on this team. Sorry.

Plus, I'm not paying the bills and neither are you so stop throwing around big numbers for shock value. We've got plenty of cap space to pay Jake Long whatever the heck the market says he's worth.

You are so entranced by this one position you don't see the big picture.

...care to tell me how poor Jake Long is in this system again? Go ahead, tell me another 5,000 times. I said it myself too, BUT I also see why there are more pressing concerns and why I'd take a lineup of

Long -- Young Guard -- Pouncey -- Young Guard -- Martin

I'd much rather put 2 new rookie Guards on this team over the next couple seasons and have 4 guys in place with the 5th being Jake freakin' Long than I would go your route and be stuck with no answer at Guard, a couple decent OTs and my only standout being Pouncey.

You replace Long with a rookie and A) you better hope it works out and B) you better put your plans for Guard on the back-burner for awhile. We can't have 2 or 3 rookies on the line at the same time.

2 Guards in 2 years is dangerous but at least one will be surrounded by Long and Pouncey while the other has Pouncey and Martin to help. That's do-able.


With my plan you get possibly the best ZBS O-line is the league 4 or 5 years down the road. Everyone will be young but have gotten a few years of experience. Everyone will be a scheme fit aside from Jake Long. If Jake Long is your worst problem I'd say you're in good shape.

If you feel strongly enough, you'll be able to trade him at that point for a high pick and replace him. I actually see this having the potential to REALLY do something for us.

As you can see I don't want to sign Jake Long for no reason. This is the potential to make the O-line, in a couple years time mind you, VERY, VERY good.
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Russ57


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple facts. Only free agents are known head cases and cancerous dudes, guys way past their prime with an over inflated sense of self worth, or someone with an enough appearance of an upside to lure another team into offering up a draft pick to take on an outrageous contract. Everybody else gets resigned because the home team can always offer the player more (for less because they don't have to beat tender offers and give draft picks) than any other team can.

None of them are what you are looking for when rebuilding. At best some can be a high priced stop gap measure. They might even make the difference for a superbowl contender. At worst then can be a devisive force in the locker and/or a contract that hurts your cap way past their tenure on the team.

How did the eagles do last year? How are the jets doing these days? Heck I remember the dolphins and shula loading up on former first round pick fa's once upon a time. That didn't work out either.

Fcae it. You have to draft good players and keep them. The rest you try and trade if you can. If you are lucky you can convince other teams they are worth a pick.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
Simple facts. Only free agents are known head cases and cancerous dudes, guys way past their prime with an over inflated sense of self worth, or someone with an enough appearance of an upside to lure another team into offering up a draft pick to take on an outrageous contract. Everybody else gets resigned because the home team can always offer the player more (for less because they don't have to beat tender offers and give draft picks) than any other team can.

None of them are what you are looking for when rebuilding. At best some can be a high priced stop gap measure. They might even make the difference for a superbowl contender. At worst then can be a devisive force in the locker and/or a contract that hurts your cap way past their tenure on the team.

How did the eagles do last year? How are the jets doing these days? Heck I remember the dolphins and shula loading up on former first round pick fa's once upon a time. That didn't work out either.

Fcae it. You have to draft good players and keep them. The rest you try and trade if you can. If you are lucky you can convince other teams they are worth a pick.




Love it!

Preach on, brother!

I'd like to see how many high-priced FAs actually helped their new team win a Super Bowl. How many of the thousands upon thousands of FA signings significantly contributed to the receiving team getting 'over the hump?!'

We signed Dansby and we're all saying that now he should be replaced. When we acquired Brandon Marshall, who at the time was one of the league's most productive play-makers, only maybe 2/3's of the forum here backed that trade!

Clearly...clearly...FA is NOT an option that delivers success or happiness for more than a very brief period.


An O-line is about solidarity. The 1 thing the Dolphins haven't had in a LONG time at any position is solidarity. Under Tony Sparano the O-line saw multiple position changes every year. We started a rookie or a new face at RG every year and had only 1 constant...

...Jake Long.


We currently have the chance to make Long, Pouncey and Martin (the 3 most important players on the line) constants for a long time. We can draft and add young, scheme-fitting Guards safely knowing that the players beside them have the experience to keep the solidarity of the O-line where we need it.

In 5 years we can have an O-line that is elite with a QB entering his prime and play-makers at WR, RB and TE if we sprinkle a few more draft picks in at those positions.

We are not that far away from seeing serious progress in the rebuilding of the Miami Dolphins. This is exciting stuff.
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JCool333


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
Simple facts. Only free agents are known head cases and cancerous dudes, guys way past their prime with an over inflated sense of self worth, or someone with an enough appearance of an upside to lure another team into offering up a draft pick to take on an outrageous contract. Everybody else gets resigned because the home team can always offer the player more (for less because they don't have to beat tender offers and give draft picks) than any other team can.

None of them are what you are looking for when rebuilding. At best some can be a high priced stop gap measure. They might even make the difference for a superbowl contender. At worst then can be a devisive force in the locker and/or a contract that hurts your cap way past their tenure on the team.

How did the eagles do last year? How are the jets doing these days? Heck I remember the dolphins and shula loading up on former first round pick fa's once upon a time. That didn't work out either.

Fcae it. You have to draft good players and keep them. The rest you try and trade if you can. If you are lucky you can convince other teams they are worth a pick.


On the whole, I agree that the draft is the way to build a team. But, that said, I think that free agency is a key element of building any team, whether it be for the following year or long term. Our roster is full of free agent or trade contributors. Obviously, we aren't the team to use as an example for success, but I think that free agency just needs to be used properly.

Free agency is key for filling holes in the roster for the upcoming season or two, for example. Be it a key backup slot or weak starting position, every team can be upgraded. Even a rebuilding franchise needs to send out a capable group of players to play every week, including those that aren't playoff contenders. On top of that, you can definitely find key contributors via free agency/trades and closing yourself off to it is a mistake. While there are many guys who garner too much attention and cash (Peyton Manning, Karlos Dansby, Asante Samuel), there are others who are worth the look.

Granted, you cannot rely on free agency as a way to build a team, but it certainly helps.
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SUG


Joined: 15 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I would not resign J. Long given:

* the amount of $$$ he wants
* the length of the contract he wants vs cash & potential time missed injured
* he is obviously not a great fit in a Zone Blocking scheme
* mounting injuries
* we could at least get something in return that represents better value against everything listed above

He must accept a 40 Mill deal & the possibility of being or shifted to another position or accept being dealt, period.

sug
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUG wrote:
Again, I would not resign J. Long given:

* the amount of $$$ he wants
* the length of the contract he wants vs cash & potential time missed injured
* he is obviously not a great fit in a Zone Blocking scheme
* mounting injuries
* we could at least get something in return that represents better value against everything listed above

He must accept a 40 Mill deal & the possibility of being or shifted to another position or accept being dealt, period.

sug


He'll be a free agent at the end of the season unless I'm wrong so we missed the boat on trading him.

We either resign him or we let someone else sign him.

Or do I have this incorrect? I thought he opted out of some possible extra year and thus he's finishing the last year of his rookie contract now. Isn't that right? Even if we traded him mid-season (which would probably spell disaster for our O-line) no one would give us the 1st rounder we're looking for to get half a season's worth of production.

Jake Long will go to the highest bidder in free agency BUT we are in good position with the cap so we can afford it. I agree he hasn't looked perfect in the ZBS but he's not a failure in it. He's just not as elite in pass protection. His run blocking has been superb. His pass protection will stabilize, and that's the key, consistency not necessary perfect performance all the time.

However the consistency he would bring to the O-line and the fact we could then have both Tackle positions filled along with Center would mean that Guard could then be taken care of quickly. If you look at me and say that this plan doesn't have the potential to put at at the top of the league in 3 or 4 years time, I would disagree.

By comparison getting nothing in return for Jake Long (a Free Agent) and having to use our 1st round pick or one of our 2nd's on a rookie LT and delaying the introduction of a new Guard, forcing us to rely on Incognito and Jerry even further is a disaster.

If we traded Jake Long when we had the chance it might be a different story but right now we have to face facts. Jake Long signing with someone else only creates cap space and a huge hole to fill that we can't really afford if we can avoid it.

Jake's earned a big contract and proved his worth. You guys talked about how an elite LT doesn't make a difference on a bad team but we're finally in a position to crawl out of that hole and getting Jake Long to stay on will really help us get there. We're finally in a position where a good, stable LT who is at least elite at some things (run blocking and leadership, if not pass protection) would actually make a difference, a big difference.

Losing Jake Long means that we're back at square one with the O-line where we have to draft 3 new players in a short amount of time. Keeping Jake Long, even at a high financial price, would at least allow us to take the next step in development. Maybe 3 or 4 years down the road we trade Jake Long for a high pick and use that on his replacement but right now we need to keep building and keep the momentum moving forward and Jake Long (although he's not the ideal) is a big part of that.

You guys don't seem to realize how big a step backwards it will be if we lose Jake Long and have to put the O-line development on the back-burner in the most crucial years of this offense's (not to mention Tannehill's) development.
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