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BYE Week Discussion Thread: Where do we go from here?
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at23steelers wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
SMashMouthMike wrote:
I hope someone on the defensive coaching staff is watching the Aaron Rogers get sacked 8 times in the 1st half. For Pete's sake - attack the QB.

This ain't rocket surgery, nor is it brain science...., err wait...

So frustrating.


As I said this offseason, D1ck has gone soft.

And yes...I know what I just said. Cool


What do you think the cause of this is??


Stress, anxiety, impotency....oh wait...

Its hard to say, but I definitely think James Harrison amd Troy being injured plays part.

Look at 2008...we were healthy all year and attacked....relentlessly.

2009 came along and we suffered some injuries, most notably Troy, who played injured and/or missed a good deal of the season. When that happened, LeBeau seemed to curl the defense in a ball and play much more conservative, and as a result, we watched our defense get tore up by the likes of Bruce Gradkowski and Matt Cassell.

Our talent isnt as good as it once. Any Steeler fan who expect us not to have a drop off or maintain that 2008 level is/was delusional. I expected the drop off. This defense isnt as bad as some are making out to be overall. Are they playing bad now? Definitely, but the talent is still there. But if you force players to play one way, which plays against what makes those players dangerous, you are going to have issues. LeBeau, as much as I love him, is having a negative effect against our players. In years past, he used to put our players in position for optimial success. At this point, its the exact opposite.

I think his age is definitely starting to become a factor. Not because he doesnt know what he is doing or that he is senile, but because he either refuses to make adjustments or doesnt know what adjustments to make to fix these issues....mainly hurry up/no huddle stuff and zone blocking. He is playing our physical DBs 6-10 yards off most of the time while guys like Ike, Lewis and Allen would be much better pressing the corners or at least playing up close, our two first round lineman are a completely different molld than guys like Brett Keisel, Aaron Smith and Kimo Von Olhoffen, yet he is still trying to play them the same way. And our pass rush is very tame....partly because we are missing Harrison, but partly because he is handcuffing our best pass rushers.

The fault can be spread around pretty evenly, but while I think we need to rework the defense, I think LeBeau's time in Pittsburgh is up. I love the guy...always will....but you have to know when your time is up, and his definitely is.
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ShooterMcGavin


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's so depressing watching Timmons play anymore. Like I said in the GDT, he just looked so dominant 2 seasons ago (at least early on), but now he just appears to be an average/mediocre ILB. Was that season a fluke because of how dominant Harrison was?
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShooterMcGavin wrote:
It's so depressing watching Timmons play anymore. Like I said in the GDT, he just looked so dominant 2 seasons ago (at least early on), but now he just appears to be an average/mediocre ILB. Was that season a fluke because of how dominant Harrison was?


No....he was just faster and played meaner in 2010.

Last year IMO screwed up his progress because they moved him around.

This year he looks heavier and slower.

He needs to slim back down to 240 or so. Right now he looks 255 or so. Get that burst back.

He will never be a guy who will be amazing at shedding blockers, but he can be a guy that can still make a fair amount of plays and make things happen like he did back in 2010.
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And good point 43. We've played one game this year in press coverage for most of the game...Jets. It surely could be coincidence, but hey, if it works, why not ride it. It's not like we have a menacing pass rush that allows our CBs to play soft zone type of D. It's almost like Lebeau's playing two different types of systems at once...and it's not working.

I say, allow our big, tough DBs play press, drop a LB or two in coverage, and let Heyward and Ziggy go at the QB. IDK, I'm far from being qualified to be a D Coord, but it really can't be that hard for Lebeau. Find what works and stick w/ that til it doesn't, because what we are doing now surely isn't working.

Overall, I was ok w/ losing to Denver, and the Jets game was more of what I was expecting this year. But this last game just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth (and no, it doesn't have anything to do w/ 43's comment about going "soft" Wink ) Hopefully we are just cursed for the rest of our days to never win against Oakland...maybe it's karma from the immaculate reception, who knows. Maybe we'll come back firing on all cylinders. The Eagles game will be telling. But if our D continues to play as it has, we are in for a long season. Oh, and our STs need SERIOUS work as well!!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with 43. I too was upset the bye week was so early. Right now though, Troy and Harrison are obviously needed on this D. Carter and Worilds still haven't gotten "it" yet and they may never. Mundy is not Troy, never will be. If you take two defensive players ofthr year off any defense, you will notice a difference. Right now, they just need to get healthy.

Really though, I look to the young guys on the DL who are now considered vets in my eyes. Guys like Woodley, Hood, McLendon and Heyward. These guys have to step up and get more pressure in the qb. This defense is predicated off of getting pressure on the qb first and then having guys in the back end being able to make plays because the qb is rushed. Right now, there is no pressure from the front 4 or 5 and that's the main reason the secondary is getting gashed.

I also agree with those saying they need to be in press man coverage. The redskins need to do the same thing, we mostly did that vs the saints and played well but the last two weeks we've played a soft zone and gotten burned.
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JustPlainNasty


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could probably start a new thread on this topic but Rainey is very stiff. He doesn't exhibit any swivel in his hips and/or his shoulders. Just something to note, not hating but it is a definite flaw. In other words he doesn't exhibit ability to make defenders miss, he isn't going to run through people so unless there is a big lane or wide open hole typically the only results we will see is on blown coverages or assignments by the defense/special teams.

Was never a Rainey fan so much but was excited to get a speed/mismatch option. It is early I know , but a duck is usually a duck. His returns have been less than stellar. I'm sure he will break one eventually but I believe there are/will be much better options than he for a more consistent average. If you stay in your lane as a special teamer there isn't much to fear.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of "love" on this one but all I'm really saying is I believe we should continue to look for and find better options down the line/next years draft. Just pick anybody that played in the Clemson/Florida State game for that matter. It's amazing how those teams get that much speed on the field and then watching a Penn State game always looks like we're playing in mud. Right idea not quite the right player?
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
Could probably start a new thread on this topic but Rainey is very stiff. He doesn't exhibit any swivel in his hips and/or his shoulders. Just something to note, not hating but it is a definite flaw. In other words he doesn't exhibit ability to make defenders miss, he isn't going to run through people so unless there is a big lane or wide open hole typically the only results we will see is on blown coverages or assignments by the defense/special teams.

Was never a Rainey fan so much but was excited to get a speed/mismatch option. It is early I know , but a duck is usually a duck. His returns have been less than stellar. I'm sure he will break one eventually but I believe there are/will be much better options than he for a more consistent average. If you stay in your lane as a special teamer there isn't much to fear.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of "love" on this one but all I'm really saying is I believe we should continue to look for and find better options down the line/next years draft. Just pick anybody that played in the Clemson/Florida State game for that matter. It's amazing how those teams get that much speed on the field and then watching a Penn State game always looks like we're playing in mud. Right idea not quite the right player?


Agreed about Rainey.

I was never big on him either. At the end of round 5 I didnt really care though, to be honest. I thought there were better options, but at that point youre lucky to get anything more than a special teams guy.

That being said, I still think Rainey can contribute, but Ive said forever that he will never be more than a situational player. We havent gotten him into any open field situations, and if we can do that, then I think he will have a chance to shine.

The dude is like a lottery ticket. He will be useless a good bit of the time, but every so often he'll hit it big. But I dont play the lottery so if he doesnt contribute enough in the next 2 years, Id move on.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Really though, I look to the young guys on the DL who are now considered vets in my eyes. Guys like Woodley, Hood, McLendon and Heyward. These guys have to step up and get more pressure in the qb. .


they're not allowed.

Don't believe me? A few points

1. Heyward generated backfield pressure that last series against the NYJ. He finished off the final series of the NYJ game with a sack. how was he rewarded?

5 snaps vs. Oakland, when Keisel SUCKED all game.

2. Alameda Ta'amu (during preseason) got a nice chewing out from John Mitchell (Steelers' DL coach) after he got a sack.

3. Ziggy Hood had 5 sacks in the last 7 games he played in 2010. The neutering wasn't complete yet. He has slowly but surely become less and less productive.


time for LeBeau and Mitchell to retire. I really don't think Tomlin anticipated a 70-year old defensive coordinator sticking around as long as LeBeau has, and I think that has influence his drafting. Ziggy is a classic Tampa-2 UT. Timmons is a classic Tampa-2 WLB. Heyward has the size and versatilty to play as a DT on passing downs or a DE in a base set. Ta'amu and McClendon both are 1-tech's, not 2-gap space eaters. Woodley is a LDE and both Carter and Worilds are RDEs.

not saying we should, nor am I saying we will, but the talent to make the switch is there. We're closer to a 43 than we are a 3-4 right now. Only 2 guys in the entire front 7 who are truly 34 guys, Snack and Deebo. Deebo's 34, Snack is 35 (and useless now)
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Really though, I look to the young guys on the DL who are now considered vets in my eyes. Guys like Woodley, Hood, McLendon and Heyward. These guys have to step up and get more pressure in the qb. .


they're not allowed.

Don't believe me? A few points

1. Heyward generated backfield pressure that last series against the NYJ. He finished off the final series of the NYJ game with a sack. how was he rewarded?

5 snaps vs. Oakland, when Keisel SUCKED all game.

2. Alameda Ta'amu (during preseason) got a nice chewing out from John Mitchell (Steelers' DL coach) after he got a sack.

3. Ziggy Hood had 5 sacks in the last 7 games he played in 2010. The neutering wasn't complete yet. He has slowly but surely become less and less productive.


time for LeBeau and Mitchell to retire. I really don't think Tomlin anticipated a 70-year old defensive coordinator sticking around as long as LeBeau has, and I think that has influence his drafting. Ziggy is a classic Tampa-2 UT. Timmons is a classic Tampa-2 WLB. Heyward has the size and versatilty to play as a DT on passing downs or a DE in a base set. Ta'amu and McClendon both are 1-tech's, not 2-gap space eaters. Woodley is a LDE and both Carter and Worilds are RDEs.

not saying we should, nor am I saying we will, but the talent to make the switch is there. We're closer to a 43 than we are a 3-4 right now. Only 2 guys in the entire front 7 who are truly 34 guys, Snack and Deebo. Deebo's 34, Snack is 35 (and useless now)


A few years ago, I wouldve laughed at this, but now its not far fetched.

The main thing is, Woodley is our best younger defensive player, and I seriously question his fit at 43 DE in the NFL. In college, he played there, but he is a much better fit for 34 OLB in the NFL.

Its not even so much that we are better suited for the 43, but I do think this team would definitely have to change how its run, because as I mentioned, the lineman arent from the same mold as Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel. These are playmakers, but when you handcuff your playmakers and make them play a style that doesnt highlight their best attributes, you are limiting their usefulness.

Ziggy gets too much hate.....people call him useless when he isnt at all. He just isnt used correctly in this defense. Blame the team for drafting him if anything.

Its hard to keep saying this, but I hope LeBeau is gone soon. I just feel like this team needs to start moving into the future, and as long as LeBeau is around, we will be stuck in the past, trying to play a style of defense that isnt nearly as useful as it was even just a few years ago.
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pghinsomniac


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least we've got company. New England, Green Bay, and Manning's Broncos are 1-2 like us. The Saints are 0-3. We're fine in that we should get back on track with some health and game adjustments. Now, as far as long term strategy and playoffs go, Lebeau has to change something. This **** has been going on for years, watching a team drive on us to win the game, not to mention just sucking against the pass in general.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:

The main thing is, Woodley is our best younger defensive player, and I seriously question his fit at 43 DE in the NFL. In college, he played there, but he is a much better fit for 34 OLB in the NFL.


well, interestingly, most thought he was a questionable fit in a 34, and that was when he was about 10-15 lbs lighter.

i think he'd make an excellent LDE.

43Mafia wrote:
Its not even so much that we are better suited for the 43, but I do think this team would definitely have to change how its run, because as I mentioned, the lineman arent from the same mold as Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel. These are playmakers, but when you handcuff your playmakers and make them play a style that doesnt highlight their best attributes, you are limiting their usefulness.

Ziggy gets too much hate.....people call him useless when he isnt at all. He just isnt used correctly in this defense. Blame the team for drafting him if anything.

Its hard to keep saying this, but I hope LeBeau is gone soon. I just feel like this team needs to start moving into the future, and as long as LeBeau is around, we will be stuck in the past, trying to play a style of defense that isnt nearly as useful as it was even just a few years ago.


yep. singing this song loud and constant since last season. The game changes. The rules have changed. Cut blocking allows offensive linemen to completely rape 2-gap/read-react DL now.
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JustPlainNasty


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomlin has always professed (especially when we drafted Ziggy) that scheme does not determine talent, talent determines scheme.

In this passing age I have felt for about 5 years now(highlighted by the Giants win in 08') that the 4-3 presents the needed disruption of the Qb more, especially up the middle. Unless you have a great blitzing ILB which I can hardly think of any, you seem to be playing into the hands of the great passing teams.

I agree with Kethnaab that it seems we do have much more of the pieces to go forward with a 4-3 D than a 3-4. Say we drafted a classic 4-3MLB like Teo and had Spence and Timmons on the outsides.

Another potential prospect that few are aware of is DE Joe Kruger 6'7" 280 from Utah . Star gets all the hype but Kruger is relentless, more talented than his Raven brother Paul and far more talented than his current teammate/brother Dave. He can play either 34 or 43 and brings pressure every single down not unlike that of JJ Watt. For those that may say he's the beneficiary of Star, he played primarily on opposite downs/rotations of Star's.
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MOSteelers56


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:

I agree with Kethnaab that it seems we do have much more of the pieces to go forward with a 4-3 D than a 3-4. Say we drafted a classic 4-3MLB like Teo and had Spence and Timmons on the outsides.


I would love to grab Teo, and the way we're playing right now we might be in position for it.
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jebrick


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I firmly believe that the Steelers will NOT switch from a 3-4 base. Too many years in it and investments in scouts and FO. They need to switch from a 2-gap to more of a 1 gap and perhaps mix in some Hybrid defense as well. Houston, 49er's and GB run 3-4 1 gaps.

The difference is playmakers. Draft low enough for long enough and you will get playmakers. The Steelers are a victim of their own success. In the past 10 years their average drafting position has been 24 ( in the 1st round). That is where they have drafted which includes trade ups and trade downs.
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The Curtain


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to buy that it's just the scheme. When you look at play-making talent, where is it on that defense? Troy Polamalu is the only guy in the secondary that comes to mind. James Harrison is the only guy up front. Neither of them are currently playing. Nobody else has stepped it up and started making the game changing plays. That's scheme? That defense hasn't played with much intensity this season, especially against the run. Part of it's probably due to Hampton being done.

Lots of these guys have been given chances, none of them have done anything to show that they're capable of carrying this D for the next few years. Though I would give someone like Cam Heyward a pass, since he's still in the developmental stages. I still don't get why Ziggy Hood doesn't see more snaps, at least to show how well he can handle it over a larger sample size.

I'd see how they play with Troy/Harrison back, because that is a big difference. In time's past, it hasn't been, which makes this sort of scary, but it's not like their D was humiliated against Oakland. Aside from giving up that big TD run, it wasn't THAT bad. I'd chalk it up to more fluky play from Oakland than bad play from Pittsburgh. Play them again and we'd probably beat their brains in, the way it should of been.
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