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skywindO2


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
There's an easy way to make sure that doesn't happen again...get the professional referees back.

From the NFL General thread:
[UMN] wrote:
This is the real problem. I'm not convinced the normal refs wouldn't have called it a TD. The real issue is that this needs to be something that can be reviewed and overturned.

I agree with [UMN] 100%.
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The Gnat


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
disaacs wrote:
There's an easy way to make sure that doesn't happen again...get the professional referees back.


That is not a sure thing either. Though, the lesser of two evils. The professional refs have also cost teams big games for bad or missed calls.


Yup, and with official positioning on the field, they were where they should have been, no guarantee they could have seen it any better. This was 100% judgement call on something even announcers with better view and monitors weren't sure on right away until replays.

Quote:
"The NFL officiating department reviewed the video today & supports decision not to overturn on-field ruling following replay review."


www.twitter.com/TomPellisero

Quote:
NFL statement: "Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty ..."

NFL statement, cont'd: "The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball"


www.twitter.com/Eric_Edholm
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skywindO2


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gnat wrote:
Quote:
NFL statement: "Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty ..."

NFL statement, cont'd: "The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball"


www.twitter.com/Eric_Edholm

That seems contradictory to what others have said.
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The Gnat


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nowhere in the statement does the NFL say officials CORRECTLY ruled it simultaneous possession.


www.twitter.com/TomPellisero



Skywind, I agree, does seem contradictory, I'd need to actually read what they put out myself to know if he's pulling things together from other areas of the statement they released.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
disaacs wrote:
There's an easy way to make sure that doesn't happen again...get the professional referees back.


That is not a sure thing either. Though, the lesser of two evils. The professional refs have also cost teams big games for bad or missed calls.


No one argues that a professional ref hasn't made a bad call, but I'd find it extremely difficult to believe that a professional one would have made that one.

However, as far as an upstairs ref overturning that call, you can't allow that. It's a judgment call, plain and simple. You can't allow an upstairs ref to overrule that call, otherwise, you may as well eliminate all referee judgments.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
disaacs wrote:
There's an easy way to make sure that doesn't happen again...get the professional referees back.


That is not a sure thing either. Though, the lesser of two evils. The professional refs have also cost teams big games for bad or missed calls.


No one argues that a professional ref hasn't made a bad call, but I'd find it extremely difficult to believe that a professional one would have made that one.

However, as far as an upstairs ref overturning that call, you can't allow that. It's a judgment call, plain and simple. You can't allow an upstairs ref to overrule that call, otherwise, you may as well eliminate all referee judgments.


That is where I believe the booth should have the power in review, for scoring plays only. I think they should be given more freedom to overrule ref judgement given that with technology you can do so much more vs regular speed action. For blatantly obvious cases as this, where the ref clearly made the wrong judgement, its better to get the call right in the end than to take side with a ref who was clearly wrong.

I just dont like the idea that since the ref ruled one way, there is nothing that can be done to overturn in the event that they ruled incorrectly. What is the point of the replay booth if your not going to fully use it to eliminate as much human error as possible.

There is so much a ref cant see on the field in full speed versus someone in the booth who has the ability to slow a play down and look at several different angles.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
There is so much a ref cant see on the field in full speed versus someone in the booth who has the ability to slow a play down and look at several different angles.


You could also argue that the video cameras aren't going to get all angles, so you're not necessarily going to always get a clear shot. If the referee is in correct position, he's always going to have a better shot of getting a correct call than a person up in a booth.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
There is so much a ref cant see on the field in full speed versus someone in the booth who has the ability to slow a play down and look at several different angles.


You could also argue that a video camera can't show all angles, so you're not necessarily going to always get a clear shot.


No, but at least your getting multiple angles and the ability to slow things down and pause the action. There is simply no room for error when it happens live and things happen so fast.

Everyone gives the refs a hard time for being unable to see Tate's positioning on the balll, but all the replays shown of the play are in superslow motion or are still shots. Try making that call at full speed with an obstructed view. That is why I would support the booth having more authority to overrule calls on the field in the event of reviewing scoring plays. Otherwise, your basically embracing referee error and accepting the result due to technicality.
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Captain Viking


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All these packer offensive players taking to twitter to whine about refs is just stupid. Its just a convenient distraction from their own god awful performance, especially the offensive line and play calling in the first half. The defense is the only ones with a legitimate gripe. Aaron Rodgers and his counterparts sound like a bunch of spoiled privileged kids. That's 3 straight weeks of below average production and all they wanna talk about is refs ... give me a break
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Viking wrote:
All these packer offensive players taking to twitter to whine about refs is just stupid. Its just a convenient distraction from their own god awful performance, especially the offensive line and play calling in the first half. The defense is the only ones with a legitimate gripe. Aaron Rodgers and his counterparts sound like a bunch of spoiled privileged kids. That's 3 straight weeks of below average production and all they wanna talk about is refs ... give me a break


Agreed, if they fail to get over this one play and not look at the big picture, they are sunk. The Packers offense has been even worse than the Vikings offense this year, granted they have played better defenses. The point remains. You expect more from the reining MVP with all those receiving options.

They can still fix it, but taking to twitter and whining isnt the way to go. The Saints game couldnt come at a perfect time, the Saints defense is abysmal. I hope the Saints can get there passing game going too, I hope to see a shootout in the Saints favor and knock GB to 1-3.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
disaacs wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
There is so much a ref cant see on the field in full speed versus someone in the booth who has the ability to slow a play down and look at several different angles.


You could also argue that a video camera can't show all angles, so you're not necessarily going to always get a clear shot.


No, but at least your getting multiple angles and the ability to slow things down and pause the action. There is simply no room for error when it happens live and things happen so fast.

Everyone gives the refs a hard time for being unable to see Tate's positioning on the balll, but all the replays shown of the play are in superslow motion or are still shots. Try making that call at full speed with an obstructed view. That is why I would support the booth having more authority to overrule calls on the field in the event of reviewing scoring plays. Otherwise, your basically embracing referee error and accepting the result due to technicality.


That's why people are giving them a hard time for not being able to see it. They weren't where they were supposed to be.
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since72


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
That's why people are giving them a hard time for not being able to see it. They weren't where they were supposed to be.


Where should they have been standing? In the middle of the players?

There's one flaw with the replay system. If the booth officials can't get clear evidence the on-field officials were wrong, they have to let the play stand. That's what they're saying in this case.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since72 wrote:
Klomp wrote:
That's why people are giving them a hard time for not being able to see it. They weren't where they were supposed to be.


Where should they have been standing? In the middle of the players?

There's one flaw with the replay system. If the booth officials can't get clear evidence the on-field officials were wrong, they have to let the play stand. That's what they're saying in this case.


I understand the technical aspects of why the booth officials cant change the call, i just dont agree with that restriction.

I think there should be some flexibility to allow cases in which the booth officials can overturn a call on the field when the ref is clearly in the wrong. Especially if it directly effects the outcome of the game as to not screw a team over. I just dont agree that an official who clearly makes the wrong call on the field should have that call stand, regardless if there is evidence to prove they are wrong.

I would trust the call of the replay booth more than I would a ref on the field who only has one shot to see the play at full speed.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
I would trust the call of the replay booth more than I would a ref on the field who only has one shot to see the play at full speed.


These referees, yes...but, the professional ones...absolutely not. I actually have always trusted the professional referees more on these types of judgment calls than those up in the booth. They are always going to make some mistakes, but I think it's finally become clearly evident on how good the professional ones are.

But, as far as not agreeing on the restriction, where do you put the line on how clear the evidence has to be to overturn it? The officials' jobs are difficult enough and have been complicated enough with all the minutiae of details they need to watch for, why complicate it more and slow down the game further with having to watch video tape slo-mo to try and determine at what point does it become clearly evident?

Anyway, the part of the Packers' players complaining about it on Twitter...they need to let it go and move on. McCarthy and the leaders amongst the players need to get a control of the locker room and tell them to zip it.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the professional refs would have gotten it right, and perhaps maybe they dont need a replay system backing them up, however, I believe that these replacement refs do without question. they should be able to atleast override there rulings until the professional refs come back. Its just baloney that they Packers had to lose the game that way, despite all the issues they have had, they still mounted a comeback and prevented Seattle from scoring in the end.

As for getting over it, yes the Packers desperately need too. They have a short week and they cant take the Saints lightly.
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