Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Is Crennel doing Eric Berry a disservice?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6609
Location: SC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Is Crennel doing Eric Berry a disservice? Reply with quote

I tried to watch Eric Berry closely yesterday with the understanding that Crennel has used him close to the line of scrimmage. He was used in mostly the same way against the Saints and what I noticed quite a bit is that he would often line up covering a inside receiver and then either stay with the receiver, sit in a shallow zone or peel off in another coverage assignment.

What I did notice is that he seemed out of sorts to an extent when asked to move away from the line of scrimmage. Personally, I have always thought his best position was as a coverage-oriented free safety to allow his elite range and playmaking ability to make an impact. Several times yesterday I noticed Berry in close to the line and then backpedal 5 to 10 yards and seem unsure or even lost as to where he needed to be or who he needed to cover.

I have mentioned before that I think Berry brings the same versatility as Woodson but the big caveat is that Woodson has been able to make a consistent impact in part because of superior athletic ability but more importantly because of his experience. There really isn't an offensive scheme or route combination that Woodson has not seen at the NFL level. I firmly believe that in time Berry could give us that type of roving ability but to expect him to see and understanding the complexities of the offense at this point in his career is IMO a bit much.

I think Berry would be better served to handle assignments where he has a broad view of the action and can use his reaction skills and range to make a play on the ball in deeper coverage (from a set position deeper than < 5 yards from the line of scrimmage).

IMO Berry has elite potential in this tye of role. As Berry gains experience at the NFL level, then more than likely the opportunity will be there to move him around and even use him closer to the line of scrimmage.

At this point I would hope our defense can make an impact in run defense without Berry hovering around the LOS - our personnel are built around shutting down the run but where we run into problems is in coverage considering our pass rush is inconsistent outside of Houston.

Atlanta was able to attack our defense outside and we tried to react by having Derrick Johnson backpedal into underneath zone coverage. Why not have a player of Eric Berry's playmaking caliber handling a rover coverage 10+ yards back with the ability to have him walk up closer if the offense is hitting shorter routes?

I just think that Eric Berry has the skillset to be an elite coverage safety and could have helped out more when we had Jacques Reeves starting outside by handling help coverage and rover coverage deeper than handling in-the-box assignments.

Sorry for the rambling, but I haven't exactly liked how Berry has been used going from last year to this year so far.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 5537
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more Nic. I don't know wth Crennel is doing with Berry out there but at times it just isn't working. Yes, he does help stop the run but I would like to see him make plays 10-15 yards back and create some turnovers (something we obviously need).
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6609
Location: SC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikek163 wrote:
I couldn't agree more Nic. I don't know wth Crennel is doing with Berry out there but at times it just isn't working. Yes, he does help stop the run but I would like to see him make plays 10-15 yards back and create some turnovers (something we obviously need).


Mikey,
Yeah, my biggest thing is that having Berry play closer to the line of scrimmage to help in run defense is a luxury we can't really afford considering our need for coverage help.

The other thing I would argue is that while having a player in the box helps to make an impact, the impact IMO is more of a "sum-of-the-parts" type of impact in run defense because Berry likely isn't going to make as many impact plays but will more than likely help in run defense (ie forcing the runner back inside where the line and linebackers can make the tackle).

With Berry playing back further we should have more opportunities for him to make a play that is a bigger impact (like you said like an interception or batted pass or even a less noticeable affect on what the quarterback sees).

If an offense knows that we have a rangy, playmaking safety roaming the secondary they are going to have to gameplan for that. With him playing near the line of scrimmage, sure we add another player in run defense and an occassional blitzer, but the odds of Berry making consistent impact plays in that area is IMO slimmer than taking advantage of his range and playmaking ability.

Like I said before, with our front 7 geared more for run defense we shouldn't need to have Berry playing close to the line of scrimmage to help against the run - IMO certainly not as his primary role at this point in his career.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HiccupGuy


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 1992
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate to say it but we need Jon McGraw back or that type of player to take that spot away from Berry.

I wish we would use Hartman up near the line and that would allow Berry to drop back.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6609
Location: SC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiccupGuy wrote:
Hate to say it but we need Jon McGraw back or that type of player to take that spot away from Berry.

I wish we would use Hartman up near the line and that would allow Berry to drop back.


See, my thing is, we shouldn't need a McGraw-type of safety. We have a defensive line that is built to if nothing else hold the point of attack and serve as run defenders especially Dorsey and Jackson. We have inside linebackers that are solid in run defense (and in the case of Belcher, that is pretty much exclusively what he is solid at).

I can understand if we used a 1-gap attacking defensive scheme and so to compensate for that we wanted to have a rover closer to the line of scrimmage to help against the run. But we run a two gap, so there shouldn't be alot of open lanes to run through if the line is doing their job. And Derrick Johnson has good to even elite range for an inside linebacker so he can get to the outside if needed. Belcher is pretty much exclusively the linebacker version of an in-the-box safety as we definitely don't want him used much in coverage if we can help it.

Now, if we feel more comfortable in having our cornerbacks handling more man coverage assignments with little safety help, then we can walk a safety up closer to the line of scrimmage. I would argue that only makes sense when you have a player like Eric Berry in medium to deep coverage to compensate for this. Elam and even Lewis do not have tremendous range and IMO, especially Lewis, they get by with being generally in the right place in coverage. But neither can handle large territory in the secondary that comes from moving a secondary player closer to the line of scrimmage.

I definitely think we would benefit from having two safeties that essentially are interchangeable back in the secondary and in Berry and Lewis I think we have two solid coverage safeties.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DT58_lives_on


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 5791
Location: St. Cloud, MN
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally have been disappointed with Berry's tackling this year, and while yes tackling is on coaches somewhat it is much more on the player. I haven't liked how Berry was deployed either, moving him around a la Chucky Heisman is great if you have two other safeties that are capable, for us it has simply been causing more issues. Berry has been playing more of an additional LB than a defensive back, again something he could probably get the hang of in time, but it is taking a huge playmaker out of our defensive backfield.
_________________
[image]http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg481/jesse_fritsch1/DEEFORD2_zpsef1ad50c.jpg[image]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18692
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it was astonishing how many times Brees came up to the line and I heard "29's the Mike"
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 5537
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
it was astonishing how many times Brees came up to the line and I heard "29's the Mike"


Hahahahaha. I actually found that hilarious imo. Brees must have been wondering wtf are these guys doing?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ryknowssd


Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 22821
Location: Awesomeville
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, you have to remember that he's our strong safety. In our nickel package, especially with DJ's range likely being limited after getting injured last week, Berry is our next best balanced defender who can play both in the box and in coverage. Berry getting mike assignments in nickel seems very logical and TBH, I commend Crennel for finding a way to use him in that manner. Until Lewis and DJ are both 100% healthy, the ability to keep Berry in the box and rotate coverage/run support duties depending on the play call is a luxury most other teams in the NFL simply don't have. I mean, think about it. If we kept Berry in coverage on 90% of the snaps, who would be our nickel mike? DJ with a bum ankle? Hell, he's struggled mightily in coverage this season even WITHOUT being nicked up. Belcher? Hells naw. Daniels? Hartman? I think you get the point. Berry is the primary reason we were able to keep the Saints under 300 total yards and Romeo deserves a ton of credit for accomplishing that feat with his game plan.

Once we're fully healthy, I see Berry going back to a role similar to what he played in his rookie season. That played to his strengths better and I think Romeo realizes that. For now, though, his current role helps us be a more complete defense as a whole.
_________________

bigschmadt00 wrote:
Oooohhhh YEAHH!!! WOO PIG SOOIE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mikek163


Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 5537
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryknowssd wrote:
Guys, you have to remember that he's our strong safety. In our nickel package, especially with DJ's range likely being limited after getting injured last week, Berry is our next best balanced defender who can play both in the box and in coverage. Berry getting mike assignments in nickel seems very logical and TBH, I commend Crennel for finding a way to use him in that manner. Until Lewis and DJ are both 100% healthy, the ability to keep Berry in the box and rotate coverage/run support duties depending on the play call is a luxury most other teams in the NFL simply don't have. I mean, think about it. If we kept Berry in coverage on 90% of the snaps, who would be our nickel mike? DJ with a bum ankle? Hell, he's struggled mightily in coverage this season even WITHOUT being nicked up. Belcher? Hells naw. Daniels? Hartman? I think you get the point. Berry is the primary reason we were able to keep the Saints under 300 total yards and Romeo deserves a ton of credit for accomplishing that feat with his game plan.

Once we're fully healthy, I see Berry going back to a role similar to what he played in his rookie season. That played to his strengths better and I think Romeo realizes that. For now, though, his current role helps us be a more complete defense as a whole.


Berry was in the box all game vs the Falcons when DJ and Lewis were both 100%. It doesn't seem like he did it / is doing it for injury purposes. He likes him up front.

Also, "once were fully healthy" isn't a strong argument IMO. We most likely never will be fully healthy.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigschmadt00


Moderator
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 10909
Location: 500 miles East of Sack City!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ wasn't healthy for the Falcons game and Lewis has missed the whole regular season, but even still, Berry was in the box a ton during the pre-season too.

If I said Berry was near the LOS more to shut down the passing game then the running game, would that change your perception? Come along for a short (I promise) ride.

This is definitely a passing league, but it's not exactly a DEEP passing league for the most part. Most teams use a lot of WCO principles especially outside of their edge players, which means short routes for ellusive players to make a play off of YAC. If you make an assumption that our edges are largely covered by our CB's by themselves, then you don't need a great safety to bracket the edges, but just one literal safety back there to react to a deep throw as needed.

So with the proliferation of receiving TE's, the slot receiver becoming essentially a starter for many teams, and a lot of teams using receiving oriented RB's at least as change of pace guys, sheer numbers would suggest that there will be a lot more passes thrown within 5 or so yards of the LOS then 15+yds where a rover type could really be impactful. More passes means more opportunity, which means that should be a big focus.

Whether it be using his elite athleticism and Berry closing on a short pass for an INT (likely pick 6 in that situation) or sneaking back dropping underneath shallow crossing routes by TE's and slot guys and picking it off, I actually think this utilization in today's NFL could be WAY more impactful then a deep rover type of guy.

Of course he has to both be consistently used this way, but also learn to do this. He's not tearing it up now, but I think if you look back on his rookie season, there's reason to believe he'll be a quick study, and he could easily be changing games in another 4-5 weeks or so. While non-traditional, I think it's potentially mroe impactful then he'd be as a deep rover type of safety, and as such am willing to give it some time.
_________________

^ryknowssd on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6609
Location: SC
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigschmadt00 wrote:
DJ wasn't healthy for the Falcons game and Lewis has missed the whole regular season, but even still, Berry was in the box a ton during the pre-season too.

If I said Berry was near the LOS more to shut down the passing game then the running game, would that change your perception? Come along for a short (I promise) ride.

This is definitely a passing league, but it's not exactly a DEEP passing league for the most part. Most teams use a lot of WCO principles especially outside of their edge players, which means short routes for ellusive players to make a play off of YAC. If you make an assumption that our edges are largely covered by our CB's by themselves, then you don't need a great safety to bracket the edges, but just one literal safety back there to react to a deep throw as needed.

So with the proliferation of receiving TE's, the slot receiver becoming essentially a starter for many teams, and a lot of teams using receiving oriented RB's at least as change of pace guys, sheer numbers would suggest that there will be a lot more passes thrown within 5 or so yards of the LOS then 15+yds where a rover type could really be impactful. More passes means more opportunity, which means that should be a big focus.

Whether it be using his elite athleticism and Berry closing on a short pass for an INT (likely pick 6 in that situation) or sneaking back dropping underneath shallow crossing routes by TE's and slot guys and picking it off, I actually think this utilization in today's NFL could be WAY more impactful then a deep rover type of guy.

Of course he has to both be consistently used this way, but also learn to do this. He's not tearing it up now, but I think if you look back on his rookie season, there's reason to believe he'll be a quick study, and he could easily be changing games in another 4-5 weeks or so. While non-traditional, I think it's potentially mroe impactful then he'd be as a deep rover type of safety, and as such am willing to give it some time.


bigs, thanks for the ride. It was definitely trippin' dude! LOL
You make some interesting points, but I would add :

I get your comment about the short yardage passing game, but I also would say that when we played the Falcons and the Saints (didn't see the Bills game to confirm) we got be not by less than 5 yard passing plays but by plays more in the range of 5+ (around 10 yards I would guess). I watched Berry as closely as possible on several plays and he would often essentially line up in slot man coverage by appearances and then either backpedal in man coverage or turn and run with his back to the line of scrimmage to cover a short zone (again, right around 5 yards or so) in an area other than directly behind him. My real issue is that Berry (and most other coverage defenders) do much better when they are able to move towards the line of scrimmage and see the play in front of them as opposed to either backpedaling or turning to cover a zone without any vision of the play developing behind him.

Again, I am not saying Berry can't handle the short coverage assignment. I think he can. But my real issue is if it is maximizing his strengths to take full advantage of his abilities in making an impact. I remember time and again when Roddy White was catching pass after pass with essentially single coverage (over Derrick Johnson who was consistently player right around 5 yards deep in coverage or shorter) that if we had Eric Berry patrolling the middle of the field there would atleast be a chance to impact the play if for nothing more than letting Matt Ryan know that we have someone in the middle of the field that has the range to be in the area of the ball and can certainly make a play on the pass in help coverage.

Again, I get what you are saying, I just think it is a case of getting the maximum impact for the snaps a player takes. We supposedly have Javier Arenas who was one of the better inside cover corners in college as well as one of the better blitzing cornerbacks. So if we want to generate some pressure near the line of scrimmage both as a pass blitzer and run defender, why not have Arenas cover the slot receiver then when he streaks to the LOS, we have Berry in midrange coverage to pick up the slot receiver Arenas left?

The bottom line is, I would much rather have Berry be able to range in medium coverage and be moving toward the play than moving away from the LOS and have more of a shallow zone where he not only has to hurry to get to his coverage zone but also then immediately react to the ball. Back farther in a set free safety position he could not only see more of the overall offensive set but also see the play develop, see the routes being run and handle his assignment with the ability to move toward the ball.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chiefer


Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 11552
Location: Somewhere in an Arizona Desert...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJ was healthy against the Saints, looked just like 2011 DJ.

Will be interesting to see if he allows Berry to back off the LOS with DJ finally getting his wheels back.
_________________
Adopt-A-Chief: Albert Wilson
Catches: 4
Yards: 51
TD: 0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigschmadt00


Moderator
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 10909
Location: 500 miles East of Sack City!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nic all I can say is the Atlanta game we were not whole on the edges with Reeves getting torched deep repeatedly, so it wasn't an opportunity to realy see if this could work. Also, it will take time for Berry to learn this.

I get that you're saying he definitely could be better used right now back in a traditional deep safety spot, but in the long run I can see where this role has a chance to become more impactful then that, being around the ball more on every play, and not just the mid to deep passes, which for most teams I'd guess would probably make up less then 30% of all plays. This way Berry is in on more plays, which is a good thing IMO, and I'm willing to give it a half-season or so to see if it can start to prove itself out some.
_________________

^ryknowssd on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6609
Location: SC
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigschmadt00 wrote:
Nic all I can say is the Atlanta game we were not whole on the edges with Reeves getting torched deep repeatedly, so it wasn't an opportunity to realy see if this could work. Also, it will take time for Berry to learn this.

I get that you're saying he definitely could be better used right now back in a traditional deep safety spot, but in the long run I can see where this role has a chance to become more impactful then that, being around the ball more on every play, and not just the mid to deep passes, which for most teams I'd guess would probably make up less then 30% of all plays. This way Berry is in on more plays, which is a good thing IMO, and I'm willing to give it a half-season or so to see if it can start to prove itself out some.


Bigs,
I guess I am of the opinion that when Berry is closer to the line of scrimmage he is going to be able to make more of an impact in run defense than anything else. When he walks up within 5 yards or less, his coverage ability impact and reaction time is limitd because unless he is playing man coverage on a route runner, the action is going to be behind him after the snap of the ball. I get what you are saying about the passing game, but even against the Saints, most of the passing plays completed against our defense IIRC were around 10 yards. If Berry is closer to the line of scrimmage maybe we deter some of the short short passes like quick outs to wide receivers, etc., but I would prefer Berry patrolling medium depth to stop the chain-moving passing plays. If offenses are completing passes 10+ yards, Berry would atleast make the offense adjust. And if they start throwing passes under 10 yards, then you start walking Berry up closer so he can serve as the cut off for those passes.

Again, I don't argue there is not any value having a player closer to the line of scrimmage. I would say that Arenas should be that guy IMO. But considering Berry's elite skill set, I would prefer him being able to help our cornerbacks by being back farther in the secondary with the ability to read and react and move towards the ball, not away from the ball.

But in the end, there really is no right or wrong way to use Berry, just IMO ways that maximize his elite physical ability while also considering some of our weaknesses and supposed strengths as a defense.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group