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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
Lil' Shorty wrote:
Im telling you, while Freeman has shown some significant flaws, when we run 2 strait times then have a 3rd and long every time, any QB would be looking that bad. Half of this blame goes to the coaches. I dont care if you have Vincent Jackson or Megatron. When its 3rd and long and the D knows you are going to pass, or run again which is just a give up play, the top WR is going to be doubled and doubled well. Any QB would have problems. The throws behind WRs however is another story.
.

You're also forgetting how he fails to read coverages before snaps adjust against the blitz and stare down one side of the field and never take his eyes off that side. Yeah the coaches of Dallas pointed that out to Aikman. That's a huge flaw right there. Qb does that the offense goes no where.

Aikman also said that our WRs weren't separating and that our play-calling was incredibly predictable.

You know that late TD that Freeman threw to Mike Williams against the Giants to tie the game? Williams said after the game that Freeman checked to a 9 route because he saw a single high safety.

Freeman has some obvious issues that he needs to correct, but you're going to have to show me some evidence proving that he can't read coverages pre-snap. You have said this a bunch over the last few weeks and yet you can't point to anything to back it up.
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaRealdeal wrote:
REDandPEWTER wrote:
Lil' Shorty wrote:
Im telling you, while Freeman has shown some significant flaws, when we run 2 strait times then have a 3rd and long every time, any QB would be looking that bad. Half of this blame goes to the coaches. I dont care if you have Vincent Jackson or Megatron. When its 3rd and long and the D knows you are going to pass, or run again which is just a give up play, the top WR is going to be doubled and doubled well. Any QB would have problems. The throws behind WRs however is another story.
.

You're also forgetting how he fails to read coverages before snaps adjust against the blitz and stare down one side of the field and never take his eyes off that side. Yeah the coaches of Dallas pointed that out to Aikman. That's a huge flaw right there. Qb does that the offense goes no where.

Aikman also said that our WRs weren't separating and that our play-calling was incredibly predictable.

You know that late TD that Freeman threw to Mike Williams against the Giants to tie the game? Williams said after the game that Freeman checked to a 9 route because he saw a single high safety.

Freeman has some obvious issues that he needs to correct, but you're going to have to show me some evidence proving that he can't read coverages pre-snap. You have said this a bunch over the last few weeks and yet you can't point to anything to back it up.


DRD,

It's pretty obvious. I mean seriously Dallas is bringing the heat and you don't check into a quick slant route? Every time our defense showed blitz u see romo adjust te calls and he hits the wr on a quick stop route or slant that gets a quick completion. Freeman? Either run or PA pass. Nothing that gives him a chance to get the ball out quickly.

Wrs getting open? In the nfl your not going to get separation very long and better throw on anticipation. Reading the coverage presnap allows a qb to do this. Freeman doesn't. He waits and waits too long staring Down his target.
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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
DaRealdeal wrote:
REDandPEWTER wrote:
Lil' Shorty wrote:
Im telling you, while Freeman has shown some significant flaws, when we run 2 strait times then have a 3rd and long every time, any QB would be looking that bad. Half of this blame goes to the coaches. I dont care if you have Vincent Jackson or Megatron. When its 3rd and long and the D knows you are going to pass, or run again which is just a give up play, the top WR is going to be doubled and doubled well. Any QB would have problems. The throws behind WRs however is another story.
.

You're also forgetting how he fails to read coverages before snaps adjust against the blitz and stare down one side of the field and never take his eyes off that side. Yeah the coaches of Dallas pointed that out to Aikman. That's a huge flaw right there. Qb does that the offense goes no where.

Aikman also said that our WRs weren't separating and that our play-calling was incredibly predictable.

You know that late TD that Freeman threw to Mike Williams against the Giants to tie the game? Williams said after the game that Freeman checked to a 9 route because he saw a single high safety.

Freeman has some obvious issues that he needs to correct, but you're going to have to show me some evidence proving that he can't read coverages pre-snap. You have said this a bunch over the last few weeks and yet you can't point to anything to back it up.


DRD,

It's pretty obvious. I mean seriously Dallas is bringing the heat and you don't check into a quick slant route? Every time our defense showed blitz u see romo adjust te calls and he hits the wr on a quick stop route or slant that gets a quick completion. Freeman? Either run or PA pass. Nothing that gives him a chance to get the ball out quickly.

Wrs getting open? In the nfl your not going to get separation very long and better throw on anticipation. Reading the coverage presnap allows a qb to do this. Freeman doesn't. He waits and waits too long staring Down his target.

Just because he doesn't check to a different play it doesn't mean that he can't read what is going on pre-snap. That's a pretty big assumption on your part.

So you listen to Aikman when he said that Freeman stares at one side of the field, but you disregard his comments when he says that our WRs didn't separate? Freeman does hold onto the ball too long and he does stare down WRs, but his WRs aren't breaking free from coverage either.
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indifference


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for the record, its not wise to audible to a quick slant when your WR's can't get off the jam, especially knowing the Cowboys are bringing the heat. That's just setting Freeman up for one of two things. A sack or an interception. The ways you beat blitz are by deception. A designed cut back run, a reverse, misdirection, or a power sweep even. Sully dialed up the Benn-Around and got 9 yards on it. I've seen him call cutback runs, misdirection runs, prior to yesterday and he added the reverse yesterday. He has got to try to use these running combinations to keep defenses honest. Because the Panthers, Giants, and Cowboys will not lay down and get overpowered. Hopefully Schaino and company learns soon.
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DaRealdeal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indifference wrote:
And for the record, its not wise to audible to a quick slant when your WR's can't get off the jam, especially knowing the Cowboys are bringing the heat. That's just setting Freeman up for one of two things. A sack or an interception. The ways you beat blitz are by deception. A designed cut back run, a reverse, misdirection, or a power sweep even. Sully dialed up the Benn-Around and got 9 yards on it. I've seen him call cutback runs, misdirection runs, prior to yesterday and he added the reverse yesterday. He has got to try to use these running combinations to keep defenses honest. Because the Panthers, Giants, and Cowboys will not lay down and get overpowered. Hopefully Schaino and company learns soon.

All good points. That was a laughable offensive display yesterday.
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mfw096


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

5nick5 wrote:
ramblinbuc wrote:
Tebow? are you kidding?


Don't hate


+1
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ravishingone


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaRealdeal wrote:
indifference wrote:
And for the record, its not wise to audible to a quick slant when your WR's can't get off the jam, especially knowing the Cowboys are bringing the heat. That's just setting Freeman up for one of two things. A sack or an interception. The ways you beat blitz are by deception. A designed cut back run, a reverse, misdirection, or a power sweep even. Sully dialed up the Benn-Around and got 9 yards on it. I've seen him call cutback runs, misdirection runs, prior to yesterday and he added the reverse yesterday. He has got to try to use these running combinations to keep defenses honest. Because the Panthers, Giants, and Cowboys will not lay down and get overpowered. Hopefully Schaino and company learns soon.

All good points. That was a laughable offensive display yesterday.


Excellent points. I just don't understand the aversion to run outside of the tackles. Second, maybe a little more presnap motion other then the fullback motioning into the backfield. I thought Gruden overkilled his motion in his offense, but giving the defense something else to look at presnap can't hurt.

All that being said, I think Schiano is on the right track and has this team light years ahead from the previous regime.
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SappDaddyDance


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, I saw that a little bit," said former offensive lineman Brian Baldinger, an analyst for Fox and the NFL Network. "You never see him just stay in there and, literally, as he's throwing it, somebody just wallops him. He always will back out and fade away from the throw. That's on tape and that's one reason the Vikings were blitzing."


Quote:
That's a fair point, especially after a game in which Esiason thought Manning looked "completely confused and rattled." Maybe he could've gotten away with that elsewhere, but by now he should know he'll never get away with it here.


If you had not picked up where these quotes were from, they are from a 2007 News article where Giants GM Jerry Reese made claims of Eli Manning looking skittish and unsure about himself after a game against the Minnesota Vikings where manning was sacked 3 times in a losing effort. Of Note at that time Eli was near the bottom in both completion percentage (58% and a Quarterback Rating of 75 when the perfect score was 158.3). Very similar to Freeman's current pace. Growing up in New Jersey and going to college in New York I was able to see similarities between the two:
-Both QB's were in their fourth year with a new offensive coordinator putting in new digit based offensive sets which takes a considerable amount of time to put in place (Many equate learning this offense to learning French about spending years learning Spanish)
-Both had a history of having calm demeanor coming out and had up to this point struggled to find that point (Freeman if many were not familiar had one of the most surprising upsets in college football history as a Freshman when he threw for 300+ yards to beat number 1 Texas at Texas)
-Both played at college programs that struggled to win (Eli went to 2 bowl games Freeman went to 1)
-Both had been known up to this point as QB's that had accuracy issues (Eli as many real Giant fans might admit to this day has terrible accuracy issues and is bailed out by his wide outs)
-Both spent their first three years not only inconsistent play, but had to rely solely on Tight ends that were both past their prime (also both played at Miami after the other in Shockey and Winslow)
-Both play was attributed to some sloppy fundamentals involving footwork. (Eli just like Freeman would try to side step into throws
-In their fourth year they both were able to attract the top free agent wide out in which in both offenses had early struggles. (As evidenced by Jerry Reese's skittish statement)

-Both had/have success when the playbook is essentially thrown out and they can just play football (as evidenced for Freeman by the last two drives in the Giants game, the 2010 season (4 Quarters), along with Eli Manning who is known all around the league for his success in the 2 minute offense (when the playbook and scheme is basically thrown out for all intensive purposes).

I have many more points, but I want you to consider all of these factors just happened 5 years ago and you see where Eli is now. As a Bucs fan yesterday I was just as livid as any other Bucs fan on here, but after taking a day to calm down I realize that this is a new offense and there will be growing pains especially in trying to see the entire field and make determinations on routes. Although many point this to be Freeman's biggest down fall that he doesn't go through progressions, they forget that he has gone through 3 different offenses play callings in 4 years (including two in his rookie year), that determining where receivers are suppose to be can be mistaken between the three different styles of play calling. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, but you can see the similarities between him and Eli especially in this fourth year that could make you want to take a wait and see approach. Besides if he takes bad enough we will end up drafting first overall and then we can take another QB. But lets take the wait and see approach
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ramblinbuc


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is most people and teams don't have the patience for QB's to develop. I have no problem saying that I'm with you guys that Free and the Play calling were horrible yesterday. Even my girlfriend said when they came out for one drive, "well here we go, run, run, bad pass, punt" and she is not even that "hip" on football. But if we give free another year or two, what at the end of the day is the difference between that and getting some rookie that is not ready for the NFL? I mean if we could replace him with a PROVEN nfl quarterback, I might be more on board, but sometimes you gotta lose to win, you gotta see dark before you can see the light. But I dont know, maybe I'm just optimistic, I suppose thats why i'm a fan on the couch.....
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REDandPEWTER


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SappDaddyDance wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, I saw that a little bit," said former offensive lineman Brian Baldinger, an analyst for Fox and the NFL Network. "You never see him just stay in there and, literally, as he's throwing it, somebody just wallops him. He always will back out and fade away from the throw. That's on tape and that's one reason the Vikings were blitzing."


Quote:
That's a fair point, especially after a game in which Esiason thought Manning looked "completely confused and rattled." Maybe he could've gotten away with that elsewhere, but by now he should know he'll never get away with it here.


If you had not picked up where these quotes were from, they are from a 2007 News article where Giants GM Jerry Reese made claims of Eli Manning looking skittish and unsure about himself after a game against the Minnesota Vikings where manning was sacked 3 times in a losing effort. Of Note at that time Eli was near the bottom in both completion percentage (58% and a Quarterback Rating of 75 when the perfect score was 158.3). Very similar to Freeman's current pace. Growing up in New Jersey and going to college in New York I was able to see similarities between the two:
-Both QB's were in their fourth year with a new offensive coordinator putting in new digit based offensive sets which takes a considerable amount of time to put in place (Many equate learning this offense to learning French about spending years learning Spanish)
-Both had a history of having calm demeanor coming out and had up to this point struggled to find that point (Freeman if many were not familiar had one of the most surprising upsets in college football history as a Freshman when he threw for 300+ yards to beat number 1 Texas at Texas)
-Both played at college programs that struggled to win (Eli went to 2 bowl games Freeman went to 1)
-Both had been known up to this point as QB's that had accuracy issues (Eli as many real Giant fans might admit to this day has terrible accuracy issues and is bailed out by his wide outs)
-Both spent their first three years not only inconsistent play, but had to rely solely on Tight ends that were both past their prime (also both played at Miami after the other in Shockey and Winslow)
-Both play was attributed to some sloppy fundamentals involving footwork. (Eli just like Freeman would try to side step into throws
-In their fourth year they both were able to attract the top free agent wide out in which in both offenses had early struggles. (As evidenced by Jerry Reese's skittish statement)

-Both had/have success when the playbook is essentially thrown out and they can just play football (as evidenced for Freeman by the last two drives in the Giants game, the 2010 season (4 Quarters), along with Eli Manning who is known all around the league for his success in the 2 minute offense (when the playbook and scheme is basically thrown out for all intensive purposes).

I have many more points, but I want you to consider all of these factors just happened 5 years ago and you see where Eli is now. As a Bucs fan yesterday I was just as livid as any other Bucs fan on here, but after taking a day to calm down I realize that this is a new offense and there will be growing pains especially in trying to see the entire field and make determinations on routes. Although many point this to be Freeman's biggest down fall that he doesn't go through progressions, they forget that he has gone through 3 different offenses play callings in 4 years (including two in his rookie year), that determining where receivers are suppose to be can be mistaken between the three different styles of play calling. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, but you can see the similarities between him and Eli especially in this fourth year that could make you want to take a wait and see approach. Besides if he takes bad enough we will end up drafting first overall and then we can take another QB. But lets take the wait and see approach


It's nice to compare and be optomistic, but the problem with Freeman is, all these flaws that were question marks coming out of K-State, are showing up still in his 4th year. There is no progression, only regression.

It sucks to point it out bc when you miss on a 1st round QB that you drafted to be the franchise, it sets a team back a couple years. When you stare one side of the field down and can't go through progressions well enough, he's so used to it to the point, I'm not sure he improves. He spends countless hours in the film room, weight room, and practice field with coaches, trying to get better. I admire his work ethic, but I just don't think he's adapted to the game. He doesn't see the field well. He's late with his throws, fails to throw with anticipation, still has that long release, has had accuracy issues his entire career, even back at K-State. I hate to say it, but he's the skinnier version of Byron Leftwich.

If he plays solid against Washington, he'll be loved by several of fellow buc fans, but they forget the bad has outweighed the good.
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LazyBoyFil


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
SappDaddyDance wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, I saw that a little bit," said former offensive lineman Brian Baldinger, an analyst for Fox and the NFL Network. "You never see him just stay in there and, literally, as he's throwing it, somebody just wallops him. He always will back out and fade away from the throw. That's on tape and that's one reason the Vikings were blitzing."


Quote:
That's a fair point, especially after a game in which Esiason thought Manning looked "completely confused and rattled." Maybe he could've gotten away with that elsewhere, but by now he should know he'll never get away with it here.


If you had not picked up where these quotes were from, they are from a 2007 News article where Giants GM Jerry Reese made claims of Eli Manning looking skittish and unsure about himself after a game against the Minnesota Vikings where manning was sacked 3 times in a losing effort. Of Note at that time Eli was near the bottom in both completion percentage (58% and a Quarterback Rating of 75 when the perfect score was 158.3). Very similar to Freeman's current pace. Growing up in New Jersey and going to college in New York I was able to see similarities between the two:
-Both QB's were in their fourth year with a new offensive coordinator putting in new digit based offensive sets which takes a considerable amount of time to put in place (Many equate learning this offense to learning French about spending years learning Spanish)
-Both had a history of having calm demeanor coming out and had up to this point struggled to find that point (Freeman if many were not familiar had one of the most surprising upsets in college football history as a Freshman when he threw for 300+ yards to beat number 1 Texas at Texas)
-Both played at college programs that struggled to win (Eli went to 2 bowl games Freeman went to 1)
-Both had been known up to this point as QB's that had accuracy issues (Eli as many real Giant fans might admit to this day has terrible accuracy issues and is bailed out by his wide outs)
-Both spent their first three years not only inconsistent play, but had to rely solely on Tight ends that were both past their prime (also both played at Miami after the other in Shockey and Winslow)
-Both play was attributed to some sloppy fundamentals involving footwork. (Eli just like Freeman would try to side step into throws
-In their fourth year they both were able to attract the top free agent wide out in which in both offenses had early struggles. (As evidenced by Jerry Reese's skittish statement)

-Both had/have success when the playbook is essentially thrown out and they can just play football (as evidenced for Freeman by the last two drives in the Giants game, the 2010 season (4 Quarters), along with Eli Manning who is known all around the league for his success in the 2 minute offense (when the playbook and scheme is basically thrown out for all intensive purposes).

I have many more points, but I want you to consider all of these factors just happened 5 years ago and you see where Eli is now. As a Bucs fan yesterday I was just as livid as any other Bucs fan on here, but after taking a day to calm down I realize that this is a new offense and there will be growing pains especially in trying to see the entire field and make determinations on routes. Although many point this to be Freeman's biggest down fall that he doesn't go through progressions, they forget that he has gone through 3 different offenses play callings in 4 years (including two in his rookie year), that determining where receivers are suppose to be can be mistaken between the three different styles of play calling. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, but you can see the similarities between him and Eli especially in this fourth year that could make you want to take a wait and see approach. Besides if he takes bad enough we will end up drafting first overall and then we can take another QB. But lets take the wait and see approach


It's nice to compare and be optomistic, but the problem with Freeman is, all these flaws that were question marks coming out of K-State, are showing up still in his 4th year. There is no progression, only regression.

It sucks to point it out bc when you miss on a 1st round QB that you drafted to be the franchise, it sets a team back a couple years. When you stare one side of the field down and can't go through progressions well enough, he's so used to it to the point, I'm not sure he improves. He spends countless hours in the film room, weight room, and practice field with coaches, trying to get better. I admire his work ethic, but I just don't think he's adapted to the game. He doesn't see the field well. He's late with his throws, fails to throw with anticipation, still has that long release, has had accuracy issues his entire career, even back at K-State. I hate to say it, but he's the skinnier version of Byron Leftwich.

If he plays solid against Washington, he'll be loved by several of fellow buc fans, but they forget the bad has outweighed the good.


This

It's just coming to that point on time where we need to realize the truth and cut our loses before we waste anymore time
Since its just on the verge of that point several of us are going to be reluctant and want to believe and still hope but enough is enough
Freeman is bad and we need to move on
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 7284
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramblinbuc wrote:
The problem is most people and teams don't have the patience for QB's to develop. I have no problem saying that I'm with you guys that Free and the Play calling were horrible yesterday. Even my girlfriend said when they came out for one drive, "well here we go, run, run, bad pass, punt" and she is not even that "hip" on football. But if we give free another year or two, what at the end of the day is the difference between that and getting some rookie that is not ready for the NFL? I mean if we could replace him with a PROVEN nfl quarterback, I might be more on board, but sometimes you gotta lose to win, you gotta see dark before you can see the light. But I dont know, maybe I'm just optimistic, I suppose thats why i'm a fan on the couch.....


It's true most teams do not have the patience, and they should. But when you're about to get to the point of making a contract decision on a QB, and he's only regressed going into his 4th year as a Pro, and at several times is looking like a lost rookie, you got to make the decision to move on and find his replacement.

If Freeman was lighting it up in the air throwing TDs and moving the ball down field, fine. But he looks like he has no idea what he's doing out there.
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SappDaddyDance


Joined: 06 Oct 2010
Posts: 531
Location: The Great State of Fist Pumpin and Hair Gel
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

REDandPEWTER wrote:
SappDaddyDance wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, I saw that a little bit," said former offensive lineman Brian Baldinger, an analyst for Fox and the NFL Network. "You never see him just stay in there and, literally, as he's throwing it, somebody just wallops him. He always will back out and fade away from the throw. That's on tape and that's one reason the Vikings were blitzing."


Quote:
That's a fair point, especially after a game in which Esiason thought Manning looked "completely confused and rattled." Maybe he could've gotten away with that elsewhere, but by now he should know he'll never get away with it here.


If you had not picked up where these quotes were from, they are from a 2007 News article where Giants GM Jerry Reese made claims of Eli Manning looking skittish and unsure about himself after a game against the Minnesota Vikings where manning was sacked 3 times in a losing effort. Of Note at that time Eli was near the bottom in both completion percentage (58% and a Quarterback Rating of 75 when the perfect score was 158.3). Very similar to Freeman's current pace. Growing up in New Jersey and going to college in New York I was able to see similarities between the two:
-Both QB's were in their fourth year with a new offensive coordinator putting in new digit based offensive sets which takes a considerable amount of time to put in place (Many equate learning this offense to learning French about spending years learning Spanish)
-Both had a history of having calm demeanor coming out and had up to this point struggled to find that point (Freeman if many were not familiar had one of the most surprising upsets in college football history as a Freshman when he threw for 300+ yards to beat number 1 Texas at Texas)
-Both played at college programs that struggled to win (Eli went to 2 bowl games Freeman went to 1)
-Both had been known up to this point as QB's that had accuracy issues (Eli as many real Giant fans might admit to this day has terrible accuracy issues and is bailed out by his wide outs)
-Both spent their first three years not only inconsistent play, but had to rely solely on Tight ends that were both past their prime (also both played at Miami after the other in Shockey and Winslow)
-Both play was attributed to some sloppy fundamentals involving footwork. (Eli just like Freeman would try to side step into throws
-In their fourth year they both were able to attract the top free agent wide out in which in both offenses had early struggles. (As evidenced by Jerry Reese's skittish statement)

-Both had/have success when the playbook is essentially thrown out and they can just play football (as evidenced for Freeman by the last two drives in the Giants game, the 2010 season (4 Quarters), along with Eli Manning who is known all around the league for his success in the 2 minute offense (when the playbook and scheme is basically thrown out for all intensive purposes).

I have many more points, but I want you to consider all of these factors just happened 5 years ago and you see where Eli is now. As a Bucs fan yesterday I was just as livid as any other Bucs fan on here, but after taking a day to calm down I realize that this is a new offense and there will be growing pains especially in trying to see the entire field and make determinations on routes. Although many point this to be Freeman's biggest down fall that he doesn't go through progressions, they forget that he has gone through 3 different offenses play callings in 4 years (including two in his rookie year), that determining where receivers are suppose to be can be mistaken between the three different styles of play calling. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, but you can see the similarities between him and Eli especially in this fourth year that could make you want to take a wait and see approach. Besides if he takes bad enough we will end up drafting first overall and then we can take another QB. But lets take the wait and see approach


It's nice to compare and be optomistic, but the problem with Freeman is, all these flaws that were question marks coming out of K-State, are showing up still in his 4th year. There is no progression, only regression.

It sucks to point it out bc when you miss on a 1st round QB that you drafted to be the franchise, it sets a team back a couple years. When you stare one side of the field down and can't go through progressions well enough, he's so used to it to the point, I'm not sure he improves. He spends countless hours in the film room, weight room, and practice field with coaches, trying to get better. I admire his work ethic, but I just don't think he's adapted to the game. He doesn't see the field well. He's late with his throws, fails to throw with anticipation, still has that long release, has had accuracy issues his entire career, even back at K-State. I hate to say it, but he's the skinnier version of Byron Leftwich.

If he plays solid against Washington, he'll be loved by several of fellow buc fans, but they forget the bad has outweighed the good.


I understand your points that he is making those errors, but most of those of correctable through consistency and I am not just talking about Freeman, it starts with the coaching staff being there for more than one year. Think about it this way, Freeman's rookie year he was suppose to essentially redshirt that year while they tried to correct those errors that had plagued him in college with the use of a solid QB coach and a solid offense. What ended up happening was that the Offensive coordinator quit before the season, he lost out on his QB coach and due to inept QB play from the QB's ahead of him on the depth chart he was forced to play as a rookie without a QB coach to help correct him and show him how to watch Film the "proper way". His second year he got another year under his belt and for the first time in his career he was able to get a QB coach that helped correct some of those issues and as a result of having a QB coach to help him out and by having a "consistent" offensive playcaller (as bad as he was) he was able to have a very good year, mounting several strong performances. Last year he did not get an off-season to work with his QB coaches or offensive coordinator and as a result did not improve as the defenses had been able to as they had film on him. This year he has yet another offense and a new offensive coordinator/QB coach where he is basically being retaught how to play the QB position (which is what was suppose to happen his rookie year, but because of the aforementioned mishap in 2009 did not occur). So am I surprised that he is struggling right now with these issues since he was never able to have someone truly correct him on these, no. And as I stated in my previous post the reasons for optimism is because he is basically being re-developed into a "real NFL QB" something that didn't happen in the past. He was more like Mike Vick relying on physical abilities as opposed to a guy who was learning how to play QB, and I think that Turner will help turn Freeman around.

One final point that I want to make is that I either saw on here or JoeBucsFan a point made about how Gabbert is having a good year with Greg Olson as his QB coach which I find interesting, but to compare him to Freeman at this point is moot as Olson was SUPPOSE to be Freeman's QB coach and instead became his Offensive coordinator which is not even close to the same thing in terms of responsibilities, while Freeman relied on a career backup QB (and 1st time QB Coach) in Alex Van Pelt to teach him how to play the position.

So RnP to go back to your point that it may seem that I am trying to hard to believe in Freeman, it's not because of blind luck and prayer that he is going to be a good QB, it's the fact that for the first time in his four year career that he actually has what all good QB's need to actually reach their potential, consistency in his coaching
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REDandPEWTER


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 7284
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SappDaddyDance wrote:
REDandPEWTER wrote:
SappDaddyDance wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, I saw that a little bit," said former offensive lineman Brian Baldinger, an analyst for Fox and the NFL Network. "You never see him just stay in there and, literally, as he's throwing it, somebody just wallops him. He always will back out and fade away from the throw. That's on tape and that's one reason the Vikings were blitzing."


Quote:
That's a fair point, especially after a game in which Esiason thought Manning looked "completely confused and rattled." Maybe he could've gotten away with that elsewhere, but by now he should know he'll never get away with it here.


If you had not picked up where these quotes were from, they are from a 2007 News article where Giants GM Jerry Reese made claims of Eli Manning looking skittish and unsure about himself after a game against the Minnesota Vikings where manning was sacked 3 times in a losing effort. Of Note at that time Eli was near the bottom in both completion percentage (58% and a Quarterback Rating of 75 when the perfect score was 158.3). Very similar to Freeman's current pace. Growing up in New Jersey and going to college in New York I was able to see similarities between the two:
-Both QB's were in their fourth year with a new offensive coordinator putting in new digit based offensive sets which takes a considerable amount of time to put in place (Many equate learning this offense to learning French about spending years learning Spanish)
-Both had a history of having calm demeanor coming out and had up to this point struggled to find that point (Freeman if many were not familiar had one of the most surprising upsets in college football history as a Freshman when he threw for 300+ yards to beat number 1 Texas at Texas)
-Both played at college programs that struggled to win (Eli went to 2 bowl games Freeman went to 1)
-Both had been known up to this point as QB's that had accuracy issues (Eli as many real Giant fans might admit to this day has terrible accuracy issues and is bailed out by his wide outs)
-Both spent their first three years not only inconsistent play, but had to rely solely on Tight ends that were both past their prime (also both played at Miami after the other in Shockey and Winslow)
-Both play was attributed to some sloppy fundamentals involving footwork. (Eli just like Freeman would try to side step into throws
-In their fourth year they both were able to attract the top free agent wide out in which in both offenses had early struggles. (As evidenced by Jerry Reese's skittish statement)

-Both had/have success when the playbook is essentially thrown out and they can just play football (as evidenced for Freeman by the last two drives in the Giants game, the 2010 season (4 Quarters), along with Eli Manning who is known all around the league for his success in the 2 minute offense (when the playbook and scheme is basically thrown out for all intensive purposes).

I have many more points, but I want you to consider all of these factors just happened 5 years ago and you see where Eli is now. As a Bucs fan yesterday I was just as livid as any other Bucs fan on here, but after taking a day to calm down I realize that this is a new offense and there will be growing pains especially in trying to see the entire field and make determinations on routes. Although many point this to be Freeman's biggest down fall that he doesn't go through progressions, they forget that he has gone through 3 different offenses play callings in 4 years (including two in his rookie year), that determining where receivers are suppose to be can be mistaken between the three different styles of play calling. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, but you can see the similarities between him and Eli especially in this fourth year that could make you want to take a wait and see approach. Besides if he takes bad enough we will end up drafting first overall and then we can take another QB. But lets take the wait and see approach


It's nice to compare and be optomistic, but the problem with Freeman is, all these flaws that were question marks coming out of K-State, are showing up still in his 4th year. There is no progression, only regression.

It sucks to point it out bc when you miss on a 1st round QB that you drafted to be the franchise, it sets a team back a couple years. When you stare one side of the field down and can't go through progressions well enough, he's so used to it to the point, I'm not sure he improves. He spends countless hours in the film room, weight room, and practice field with coaches, trying to get better. I admire his work ethic, but I just don't think he's adapted to the game. He doesn't see the field well. He's late with his throws, fails to throw with anticipation, still has that long release, has had accuracy issues his entire career, even back at K-State. I hate to say it, but he's the skinnier version of Byron Leftwich.

If he plays solid against Washington, he'll be loved by several of fellow buc fans, but they forget the bad has outweighed the good.


I understand your points that he is making those errors, but most of those of correctable through consistency and I am not just talking about Freeman, it starts with the coaching staff being there for more than one year. Think about it this way, Freeman's rookie year he was suppose to essentially redshirt that year while they tried to correct those errors that had plagued him in college with the use of a solid QB coach and a solid offense. What ended up happening was that the Offensive coordinator quit before the season, he lost out on his QB coach and due to inept QB play from the QB's ahead of him on the depth chart he was forced to play as a rookie without a QB coach to help correct him and show him how to watch Film the "proper way". His second year he got another year under his belt and for the first time in his career he was able to get a QB coach that helped correct some of those issues and as a result of having a QB coach to help him out and by having a "consistent" offensive playcaller (as bad as he was) he was able to have a very good year, mounting several strong performances. Last year he did not get an off-season to work with his QB coaches or offensive coordinator and as a result did not improve as the defenses had been able to as they had film on him. This year he has yet another offense and a new offensive coordinator/QB coach where he is basically being retaught how to play the QB position (which is what was suppose to happen his rookie year, but because of the aforementioned mishap in 2009 did not occur). So am I surprised that he is struggling right now with these issues since he was never able to have someone truly correct him on these, no. And as I stated in my previous post the reasons for optimism is because he is basically being re-developed into a "real NFL QB" something that didn't happen in the past. He was more like Mike Vick relying on physical abilities as opposed to a guy who was learning how to play QB, and I think that Turner will help turn Freeman around.

One final point that I want to make is that I either saw on here or JoeBucsFan a point made about how Gabbert is having a good year with Greg Olson as his QB coach which I find interesting, but to compare him to Freeman at this point is moot as Olson was SUPPOSE to be Freeman's QB coach and instead became his Offensive coordinator which is not even close to the same thing in terms of responsibilities, while Freeman relied on a career backup QB (and 1st time QB Coach) in Alex Van Pelt to teach him how to play the position.

So RnP to go back to your point that it may seem that I am trying to hard to believe in Freeman, it's not because of blind luck and prayer that he is going to be a good QB, it's the fact that for the first time in his four year career that he actually has what all good QB's need to actually reach their potential, consistency in his coaching


On all your points:

1. Accuracy isn't correctable. Neither is poor field vision and awareness. He hasn't corrected it since and his hard work hasn't reflected his play.

2. You claim he had a QBs coach to work with in 2010, but then point out Van Pelt was terrible. Van Pelt was his QBs coach in 2010 and 2011.

3. The more I think of it, the Lock-out isn't an excuse. Rookie QBs last year were more successful without any learning of the play-book or chemistry building with WRs. Matt Stafford made leaps as well as Alex Smith, who was learning a new offense. Freeman had the same playbook and was working out at IMG and ran a few mini-camps on his own.

I'm sorry but there are just too many excuses. You make the comparison to Manning and Him having similar paths, but they're two entirely different QBs.
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Soul Glo


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 2806
Location: FL
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R&P, just to call you out I've watched you ride the bandwagon while Free has looked good and bash him when he's looked bad.

Quote:
Sullivan took the dog-leash off Freeman because he had to down 7. And Freeman answered. Heck, he almost tied it again with 31 seconds to go.

Quote:
Josh Freeman is more than a game manager

Quote:
E erything you stated is true but he did not do any of that yesterday. I really can't pick any throw he made that was a poor decision. He was on the money with his throws throughout the game and when it wasn't there it was either a check down or placed where it was his guy or incomPletion.

He really did a good job scanning the field and stepping up into the pocket. Watch that TD pass to Williams. He moved the lb with his eyes that freed up Williams to become that open. He did a nice job scanning the field.

Yeah his stats weren't gaudy but the play calling went too conservative. But if Freeman keeps this up and continues to improve he is the right qb for this team. He needs to keep progressing though.

Quote:
Freeman can air it out

Quote:
Freeman showed you he can make the throws and move the offense through the air. It took Sullivan the hard way to find this one out by playing from behind late.

Quote:
Freeman played one heck of a ball game, but it seems he's non existant in the 3rd qtr because of the playcalling.

Quote:
This just goes to show, Sullivan, don't get conservative. Right there is proof Freeman can shoulder the load in the 2nd half. Don't get him out of rythym.

Quote:
That 2nd half wasn;t on him. He was MONEY with his throws the whole game. His supporting cast (Drops, Holding Penalty) and playcalling hindered him in the passing department. It seems like they switched up there gameplan from the 1st half, which was excellent.


and I want you to respond to this BTW, I've called you out on this before. And I'm not saying Free doesn't have flaws or how awful he played yesterday (along with the rest of the offense), but I'm gonna give him more time.... he's showed a lot of things when he's here and been through his ups/downs, but there's still a lot we have to learn about him this season.
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