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What would the team look like in a 4-3?
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simonwayne


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiccupGuy wrote:
Rearviewmirror wrote:
Dorsey was considered a steal at the time.


Yup, I remember that. I also remember disliking the pick but the 2 players I wanted were drafted before us.

Anyways the steal of that draft was either Flowers or JC or Carr.


Yeah, same here. But at the same time, I thought Gholston was going to be a beast at the pro level.

Could you imagine how nice it would be if we left that draft with Flacco, Albert, Flowers, Charles, and Carr? Two near elite CB's, an elite RB and great QB.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Houston - Dorsey/Jackson - Poe - Draft Pick

Hali(In a Von Miller role, imagine Hali as a constant blitzer. Scary.), Belcher/Draft Pick, DJ

Been toying with this in my head for a while, I think the two-gap is dead.
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Houston - Dorsey/Jackson - Poe - Draft Pick

Hali(In a Von Miller role, imagine Hali as a constant blitzer. Scary.), Belcher/Draft Pick, DJ

Been toying with this in my head for a while, I think the two-gap is dead.


Yeah, that's what I have been saying for awhile now - atleast as a base defensive scheme like the Fairbanks-Bullough. Some principles obviously make sense from a run defense standpoint, but as I have mentioned many times (I am sure some of the posters in here are sick of me saying this) - In this day and age of the passing game promoted by the NFL, getting little to no pass rush (or even threat of a pass rush) from the defensive line is going to be very hard to have any sustained success.
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EB29


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
Houston - Dorsey/Jackson - Poe - Draft Pick

Hali(In a Von Miller role, imagine Hali as a constant blitzer. Scary.), Belcher/Draft Pick, DJ

Been toying with this in my head for a while, I think the two-gap is dead.


Do you think Hali could handle a role like this? Its an honest question not trying to bang on you. As an OLB his cover skills and run stopping are his weak areas, but would a position switch like that make up for those deficiencies or make them worse? He is not the best athlete out there and kinda gets by on his technique. Im not sure how he would fair in that kind of role.

Side note I agree our old school two gap is dead though. No doubt...
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EB29 wrote:
Chiefer wrote:
Houston - Dorsey/Jackson - Poe - Draft Pick

Hali(In a Von Miller role, imagine Hali as a constant blitzer. Scary.), Belcher/Draft Pick, DJ

Been toying with this in my head for a while, I think the two-gap is dead.


Do you think Hali could handle a role like this? Its an honest question not trying to bang on you. As an OLB his cover skills and run stopping are his weak areas, but would a position switch like that make up for those deficiencies or make them worse? He is not the best athlete out there and kinda gets by on his technique. Im not sure how he would fair in that kind of role.

Side note I agree our old school two gap is dead though. No doubt...

I think he could.

If you look at the Denver playbook pics posted by one of their players last year, its basically Von Miller on the line on every play blitzihng. Wouldn't change much from where Hali is at now.

Hali is also pretty solid as a run defender now iirc, and he gets enough depth on his zone drops to be somewhat effective. Although, I would never ask him to man cover a guy lol, but maybe smash him on the LOS and then head after the QB.

I wonder if Houston and Hali could trade off in that role? I never really liked Hali as an on the line DE personally I like him more as a stand-up rusher, but that could also be effective.

With our top pick if we can't find a QB, even picking likely top 10 if not 15 we can always go after a pass rusher in this very deep class of pass rushers. Or pick one 2nd round that falls through the cracks.
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JHawk24


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer- THANK YOU! Everybody seems to think we don't have the ability to pull the switch back, but I think we are one premier DE draft pick from a truly dominant 4-3. I think Hali would be phenomenal in that role.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
onejayhawk wrote:
EB29 wrote:
Would not look good. At all. We have guys that are pretty much limited to the 3/4 with the exception of Poe and maybe Dorsey.

Dorsey is out of place in a 3-4. Poe would work fine in a 4-3. It is the natural NT/UT pairing. Hali would be fine at DE. He has been before. The one that is out place is Tyson Jackson, but Allen Bailey could do it. DJ excells at WLB, but I might like him inside. Houston makes a very good SLB. Belcher or Studebaker at WLB.

That is a solid front 7. It would be very strong in the middle, but pass rush in the base set would take some adjustment. Hali was good but not outstanding as a 4-3 DRE. Poe was drafted as a pass rusher, and Dorsey was a monster penetrator in college, who was never asked to in the NFL. Bailey has the natural tools, but he is not a developed rusher. Needless to say, we could use the same nickel package we do now.

Rearviewmirror wrote:
what about Dorsey makes you think he'll be good in a 4-3. He gets no push. He never gets push. He is good at taking 2 blockers and sealing the edge in a 3-4. He seems to have none of the explosiveness that he showed in college

This is one of things I did not like about Herm. Dorsey was playing 30 pounds lighter in college. Herm made him into a 2 gap from day 1. Dorsey added the weight and took right to the role. We have TJ for comparison on the learning curve. There is a reason he has alway drawn so many double teams. Dorsey is a natural, which is why he was considered a steal at #5.

J


A steal at #5.... c'mon man.

Dorsey is almost the same weight he played at LSU. You are making things up again. Guys is a good edge player against the run. He;s got no explosiveness to his game.


pookie,
Actually coming out of LSU, Dorsey had good short area quickness, strength, and anchor. I think his best position would have been as a penetrating 4-3 defensive tackle. His short area quickness could have allowed him to penetrate gaps and while I never expected him to be a big interior sack defender, I did anticipate him being solid at getting into rushing lanes or holding the point of attack in run defense and helping to push the pocket from the interior. As a 5-tech defensive end, I think he is miscast as his short area quickness was never able to be used as an asset because his main priority is controlling two gaps. His ability to anchor has been his best attribute. But because he lines up as a 5-tech, he is too far out to have taken advantage of his short area quickness. That IMO is why he shows little pass rush from that position.

This is all just my opinion though.


I agree there. I think coming out he should have been inside in a 4-3. I wanted the Raiders to draft him that year. But he just hasn't lived up in the NFL.

Whoever said he was hyped like Suh..... get real here. Suh was the most talked about DT since Sapp. If he seriously was that hyped up, then he truly is a failure.
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Rearviewmirror


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he wasn't quite as hyped as Suh, but he was really close.
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
nicfre2011 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
onejayhawk wrote:
EB29 wrote:
Would not look good. At all. We have guys that are pretty much limited to the 3/4 with the exception of Poe and maybe Dorsey.

Dorsey is out of place in a 3-4. Poe would work fine in a 4-3. It is the natural NT/UT pairing. Hali would be fine at DE. He has been before. The one that is out place is Tyson Jackson, but Allen Bailey could do it. DJ excells at WLB, but I might like him inside. Houston makes a very good SLB. Belcher or Studebaker at WLB.

That is a solid front 7. It would be very strong in the middle, but pass rush in the base set would take some adjustment. Hali was good but not outstanding as a 4-3 DRE. Poe was drafted as a pass rusher, and Dorsey was a monster penetrator in college, who was never asked to in the NFL. Bailey has the natural tools, but he is not a developed rusher. Needless to say, we could use the same nickel package we do now.

Rearviewmirror wrote:
what about Dorsey makes you think he'll be good in a 4-3. He gets no push. He never gets push. He is good at taking 2 blockers and sealing the edge in a 3-4. He seems to have none of the explosiveness that he showed in college

This is one of things I did not like about Herm. Dorsey was playing 30 pounds lighter in college. Herm made him into a 2 gap from day 1. Dorsey added the weight and took right to the role. We have TJ for comparison on the learning curve. There is a reason he has alway drawn so many double teams. Dorsey is a natural, which is why he was considered a steal at #5.

J


A steal at #5.... c'mon man.

Dorsey is almost the same weight he played at LSU. You are making things up again. Guys is a good edge player against the run. He;s got no explosiveness to his game.


pookie,
Actually coming out of LSU, Dorsey had good short area quickness, strength, and anchor. I think his best position would have been as a penetrating 4-3 defensive tackle. His short area quickness could have allowed him to penetrate gaps and while I never expected him to be a big interior sack defender, I did anticipate him being solid at getting into rushing lanes or holding the point of attack in run defense and helping to push the pocket from the interior. As a 5-tech defensive end, I think he is miscast as his short area quickness was never able to be used as an asset because his main priority is controlling two gaps. His ability to anchor has been his best attribute. But because he lines up as a 5-tech, he is too far out to have taken advantage of his short area quickness. That IMO is why he shows little pass rush from that position.

This is all just my opinion though.


I agree there. I think coming out he should have been inside in a 4-3. I wanted the Raiders to draft him that year. But he just hasn't lived up in the NFL.

Whoever said he was hyped like Suh..... get real here. Suh was the most talked about DT since Sapp. If he seriously was that hyped up, then he truly is a failure.


Well, he was an SEC darling to say the least. He was able to wreck havoc inside for the Tigers. Not anywhere near the impact level or hype level as Suh. IMO he was a better run defender, less of a pass rusher at the position than Gerald McCoy coming out. I do remember getting nervous about him as a prospect when I read stories about him needing to wear a knee brace when he was a child, I forget the condition, but apparently it hasn't really done much to impact his time on the field as far as I can tell.

The bottom line is, he does an admirable job (above average I would say) as a 5-tech in holding 2 gaps in run defense, but is ultimately miscast and would have likely made more of an impact in a 4-3 scheme where he could be closer to the action in the middle.

IIRC, the Falcons were considering selecting Dorsey with their pick, but we all know they ultimately went with some goober from Boston College.

Wink
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onejayhawk


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
Well, he was an SEC darling to say the least. He was able to wreck havoc inside for the Tigers. Not anywhere near the impact level or hype level as Suh. IMO he was a better run defender, less of a pass rusher at the position than Gerald McCoy coming out. I do remember getting nervous about him as a prospect when I read stories about him needing to wear a knee brace when he was a child, I forget the condition, but apparently it hasn't really done much to impact his time on the field as far as I can tell.

The bottom line is, he does an admirable job (above average I would say) as a 5-tech in holding 2 gaps in run defense, but is ultimately miscast and would have likely made more of an impact in a 4-3 scheme where he could be closer to the action in the middle.

IIRC, the Falcons were considering selecting Dorsey with their pick, but we all know they ultimately went with some goober from Boston College.

Wink

Suh is over the top for a comparison. Dareus, who has come up, was noticeably less well received. Somewhere between the two. I remember the Saints wanted to trade up for him, apparently with NT in mind.

He does not, and has never played 5 tech. No one on this defense does. It is 4 tech in the base defense, and 3 tech in the nickel.

J
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

onejayhawk wrote:
nicfre2011 wrote:
Well, he was an SEC darling to say the least. He was able to wreck havoc inside for the Tigers. Not anywhere near the impact level or hype level as Suh. IMO he was a better run defender, less of a pass rusher at the position than Gerald McCoy coming out. I do remember getting nervous about him as a prospect when I read stories about him needing to wear a knee brace when he was a child, I forget the condition, but apparently it hasn't really done much to impact his time on the field as far as I can tell.

The bottom line is, he does an admirable job (above average I would say) as a 5-tech in holding 2 gaps in run defense, but is ultimately miscast and would have likely made more of an impact in a 4-3 scheme where he could be closer to the action in the middle.

IIRC, the Falcons were considering selecting Dorsey with their pick, but we all know they ultimately went with some goober from Boston College.

Wink

Suh is over the top for a comparison. Dareus, who has come up, was noticeably less well received. Somewhere between the two. I remember the Saints wanted to trade up for him, apparently with NT in mind.

He does not, and has never played 5 tech. No one on this defense does. It is 4 tech in the base defense, and 3 tech in the nickel.

J


If that is the case with Dorsey playing 4 and 3 tech as opposed to 5 tech (I was under the impression he played alot of 5 tech), then that is even worse that he can't get any push as a pass rusher or atleast threaten the offense enough to get some attention from the offense.
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brawl.kc


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RE - Hali
NT - Poe/Toribio/Jackson
UT - Dorsey/Jackson
LE - Bailey

ROLB - Johnson
MLB - Siler
LOLB - Houston


We could do it. I don't know what everyone else is so up in arms about.
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Chiefer


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHawk24 wrote:
Chiefer- THANK YOU! Everybody seems to think we don't have the ability to pull the switch back, but I think we are one premier DE draft pick from a truly dominant 4-3. I think Hali would be phenomenal in that role.

Yeah we definitely do have the personnel. Dont see how we dont. Would just take some good drafting to shore up a top pass rusher. You like Hali at OLB too?

I just wanna switch to a one-gap something honestly.
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nicfre2011


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiefer wrote:
JHawk24 wrote:
Chiefer- THANK YOU! Everybody seems to think we don't have the ability to pull the switch back, but I think we are one premier DE draft pick from a truly dominant 4-3. I think Hali would be phenomenal in that role.

Yeah we definitely do have the personnel. Dont see how we dont. Would just take some good drafting to shore up a top pass rusher. You like Hali at OLB too?

I just wanna switch to a one-gap something honestly.


Bingo. IMO it is fun to project a changr to 4-3 and see how the puzzle pieces may or may not fit, but it would take a transition period. I would prefer as you said 1 gap as the primary defense. I like the aggressive defense that Ray Horton is running in Arizona. The F-B system is antiquated.

Edit : I should add that I do not think that it would be a good idea to switch back to the 4-3 and I would also so that needing a pass rusher isn't a small need in order to switch back. Again, you have the transition back, but also if you need to dedicate an early pick on a pass rushing DE (Montegomery for example) then you are planning on doing what at the QB position as another example of a positional need. We have fewer tweaks to make to improve our 3-4 than the tweaks necessary to be a successful 4-3. And I would add another thing - the successful 4-3 defenses often use a rotation (Giants, Eagles, etc.) along the defensive line and we just don't have the personnel. And I don't think Hali would be nearly as effective as a 4-3 DE - he just doesn't have the explosiveness and as was mentioned before, he gets by more on technique.

We just need to scrap the F-B system, move Berry back away from the line of scrimmage, find a long term ILB that can cover when needed, and quality young depth at cornerback (and likely a long term replacement for Routt).
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