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Pats were showing their hands against Cards according to DC
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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, I don't really care if it was right or not, it seems to work.

He also mentioned the -9 yard run from Woodhead that was apparantly supposed to be a toss back play. Horton says he and his guys knew what was coming after having watched that play being used more than once against this type of defense.

Maybe it was maybe it wasn't, but I know Dockett was probably just reading run and went out there and made the play.

Also;

Quote:
Brady was in the shotgun 39 times on Sunday (including penalties aand two-point conversion). The Patriots ran it 11 times, and threw 28 times on those snaps.

Meanwhile, Brady was under center 43 times in the game (including penalties), and the Patriots ran it just 17 times on those plays. So they actually passed the ball more when Brady was under center than ran it.


Is it the above or the below??

Quote:
"According to the NFL Game Summary, the Patriots ran 47 plays out of the shotgun formation. Of those 47, 39 were passes, so Horton wasn't exactly 100% on, but there was certainly a tendency for New England to throw out of that formation."

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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Also;

Quote:
Brady was in the shotgun 39 times on Sunday (including penalties aand two-point conversion). The Patriots ran it 11 times, and threw 28 times on those snaps.

Meanwhile, Brady was under center 43 times in the game (including penalties), and the Patriots ran it just 17 times on those plays. So they actually passed the ball more when Brady was under center than ran it.


Is it the above or the below??

Quote:
"According to the NFL Game Summary, the Patriots ran 47 plays out of the shotgun formation. Of those 47, 39 were passes, so Horton wasn't exactly 100% on, but there was certainly a tendency for New England to throw out of that formation."


I gave the links to the quotes.
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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/20/hortons-tell-tale-was-a-tall-tale/

Quote:
Now here’s the reality. Thanks to the new availability of coaches film from the NFL Game Rewind service, which charts plays and allows each of them to be reviewed individually via an All-22 camera angle, Horton’s claim is just. flat. wrong.

Hernandez sprained his ankle on the third offensive snap. (Hardly enough time for Horton to spot any real tendencies.) After that, the Patriots ran out of shotgun formation 10 times — including the woulda-coulda-shoulda touchdown run from Danny Woodhead that was called back on a Gronk holding penalty. And the Pats passed when Brady lined up under center 11 times.

That’s 21 plays that directly contradict the tendencies that Horton boasted the Cardinals saw. Not one or two. Twenty-one!

We’re not going to try to figure out whether Horton was intentionally lying or whether he was grossly misinformed. Either way, the comment turns what was a high point of his coaching career quickly into a low point. (And, yes, I regret taking his words at face value and not checking the game tape sooner. I could make 50 Francesa-style excuses, but the fact remains that I erroneously trusted that Horton was telling the truth or something reasonably close to it.)

Besides, what did Horton gain from it? Thumping his chest inaccurately serves only to take credit away from the guys who earned the win on the field. So good luck commanding a room full of defensive players. It also will serve only to [inappropriate/removed] of Pats coach Bill Belichick — which won’t help Horton or any team for which he’s working whenever that team comes up against the Patriots again in the future.

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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Spikes wrote:
khodder wrote:
Also;

Quote:
Brady was in the shotgun 39 times on Sunday (including penalties aand two-point conversion). The Patriots ran it 11 times, and threw 28 times on those snaps.

Meanwhile, Brady was under center 43 times in the game (including penalties), and the Patriots ran it just 17 times on those plays. So they actually passed the ball more when Brady was under center than ran it.


Is it the above or the below??

Quote:
"According to the NFL Game Summary, the Patriots ran 47 plays out of the shotgun formation. Of those 47, 39 were passes, so Horton wasn't exactly 100% on, but there was certainly a tendency for New England to throw out of that formation."


I gave the links to the quotes.


I know that, I was asking, obviously the NFC Game Summary is lying then, which seems strange.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Spikes wrote:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/20/hortons-tell-tale-was-a-tall-tale/

Quote:
Now here’s the reality. Thanks to the new availability of coaches film from the NFL Game Rewind service, which charts plays and allows each of them to be reviewed individually via an All-22 camera angle, Horton’s claim is just. flat. wrong.

Hernandez sprained his ankle on the third offensive snap. (Hardly enough time for Horton to spot any real tendencies.) After that, the Patriots ran out of shotgun formation 10 times — including the woulda-coulda-shoulda touchdown run from Danny Woodhead that was called back on a Gronk holding penalty. And the Pats passed when Brady lined up under center 11 times.

That’s 21 plays that directly contradict the tendencies that Horton boasted the Cardinals saw. Not one or two. Twenty-one!

We’re not going to try to figure out whether Horton was intentionally lying or whether he was grossly misinformed. Either way, the comment turns what was a high point of his coaching career quickly into a low point. (And, yes, I regret taking his words at face value and not checking the game tape sooner. I could make 50 Francesa-style excuses, but the fact remains that I erroneously trusted that Horton was telling the truth or something reasonably close to it.)

Besides, what did Horton gain from it? Thumping his chest inaccurately serves only to take credit away from the guys who earned the win on the field. So good luck commanding a room full of defensive players. It also will serve only to [inappropriate/removed] of Pats coach Bill Belichick — which won’t help Horton or any team for which he’s working whenever that team comes up against the Patriots again in the future.


I would say this, the tendency of running with Hernandez in tight was picked up before this game.

As for "lying" and am not sure he is lying a look at an early drive;

3-3-NE 32 (6:38) (Shotgun) 39-D.Woodhead up the middle to NE 35 for 3 yards (58-D.Washington).
1-10-NE 35 (6:02) 39-D.Woodhead left guard to NE 38 for 3 yards (90-D.Dockett).
2-7-NE 38 (5:35) 22-S.Ridley left end ran ob at NE 39 for 1 yard.
3-6-NE 39 (5:06) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 87-R.Gronkowski to NE 48 for 9 yards (23-J.Fleming; 58-D.Washington).
1-10-NE 48 (4:36) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 22-S.Ridley to ARI 36 for 16 yards (51-P.Lenon). NE 12-Brady 40,246 career pass yards, passing Johnny Unitas for 13th in NFL history.
1-10-ARI 36 (3:52) 22-S.Ridley left guard to ARI 35 for 1 yard (93-C.Campbell).
2-9-ARI 35 (3:13) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 85-B.Lloyd to ARI 33 for 2 yards (25-K.Rhodes).
3-7-ARI 33 (2:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 85-B.Lloyd. PENALTY on ARI-54-Q.Groves, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at ARI 33 - No Play.
3-2-ARI 28 (2:31) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 85-B.Lloyd.
4-2-ARI 28 (2:27) 3-S.Gostkowski 46 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-48-D.Aiken, Holder-14-Z.Mesko.


In the Gun there was three passes to 1 run. The two passes from under center on the drive were screen or smoke plays. maybe for the purposes of our defensive schem those are classified as "run"plays.

1-10-NE 28 (:27) 22-S.Ridley right end to NE 48 for 20 yards (58-D.Washington).
1-10-NE 48 (:02) (No Huddle) 22-S.Ridley right tackle to NE 49 for 1 yard (51-P.Lenon).
END QUARTER 1
2nd Quarter
New England Patriots continues ...
2-9-NE 49 (15:00) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 85-B.Lloyd.
3-9-NE 49 (14:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 85-B.Lloyd.
4-9-NE 49 (14:48) 14-Z.Mesko punts 38 yards to ARI 13, Center-48-D.Aiken. 21-P.Peterson ran ob at ARI 16 for 3 yards.

The next drive, one play from the gun is a pass. The one deep shot to Lloyd was I beleive playaction (Which would have worked against our keys)

1-10-ARI 46 (12:40) (Shotgun) 22-S.Ridley left guard to ARI 41 for 5 yards (58-D.Washington).
2-5-ARI 41 (12:06) 22-S.Ridley left end to ARI 29 for 12 yards (24-A.Wilson).
1-10-ARI 29 (11:32) 22-S.Ridley up the middle to ARI 19 for 10 yards (22-W.Gay).
1-10-ARI 19 (10:57) 22-S.Ridley left end to ARI 16 for 3 yards (93-C.Campbell).
2-7-ARI 16 (10:21) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 85-B.Lloyd pushed ob at ARI 11 for 5 yards (23-J.Fleming).
3-2-ARI 11 (9:56) 39-D.Woodhead left guard to ARI 11 for no gain (98-N.Eason).
4-2-ARI 11 (9:12) (Field Goal formation) PENALTY on NE-48-D.Aiken, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at ARI 11 - No Play.
4-7-ARI 16 (9:12) 3-S.Gostkowski 34 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-48-D.Aiken, Holder-14-Z.Mesko.

The next drive, the pass to Lloyd was a smoke route (Again might be described as a run by our keys) So here we have 1 run from 1 shotgun play. To this point Gun = 5 passes 2 runs. 5 plays under center 5 runs (if you include smoke routes and runs) so to this point when under center you have seen 13 plays, 12 of which were run or smoke/screen plays.

So to this point, post Hernandez injury it is very possible that they picked up a tendency and ran with it the rest of the way. We don't know how a team classifies a screen or smoke route. If they classify it as a running play then there are more than a few indications that if they come out under center it is going to be a run play or sorts.

From what I have heard from Horton in the past I doubt he was intentionally lying here, nor was he at all trying to take away from what his defensive players did.

During the interview he made a point of saying things like it is a big trust thing for me to trust my defense to change what I have called based on a tendecy or formation, but I have faith in my guys to do that.

Really this is a storm in a teacup. It is not going to help or hurt Arizona going forward, nor is it going to hurt NE going forward if this is incorrect.


I also think it bears noting that Florio is a notorious Cardinals hater ever since he called Mike Sherman to be their coach, slam, dunk, coming back to sign a contract...and then we signed Whisenhunt.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troy Brown wrote:
NinjaZX6R wrote:
A) Never seen Billy getting into a debate before. Usually it's MCC or Tmiz Laughing

B) Who is in the "fire Josh McDaniels" camp? Just wondering.


I was in the "Please don't hire McDaniels" camp


Same.

Can't stand McDaniels as a playcaller. I do think he's a pretty good coach in terms of fundamentals and technique but those strengths don't outweigh his often awful playcalling and total inability to make adequate in-game adjustments.

I will say though, when he calls a good game, it's a brilliant game plan. The problem is his game plans are very hit or miss. When they're bad, they're just incomprehensibly bad and often fail basic logic - probably because he gets into these grooves of trying to live up to the "Genius" label and out-thinks himself. Charlie Weis had a number of those moments but IMO the fundamentals of his playcalling are better than those of McDaniels
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wondering, who replaces McDaniels if he gets fired?
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terbo559 wrote:
Just wondering, who replaces McDaniels if he gets fired?


Moot point. He's not going anywhere.
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JudoCobra


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though McDaniels playcalling was horrendous, I still expect this team to pick up speed and at least grab 12 wins this season. I feel the Patriots as a whole are one of the best teams in adjusting their game plans week in and week out.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't expect Josh to get fired, but what are the odds of Belichick taking over playcalling if the offense continues to sputter?
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Troy Brown


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JudoCobra wrote:
Even though McDaniels playcalling was horrendous, I still expect this team to pick up speed and at least grab 12 wins this season. I feel the Patriots as a whole are one of the best teams in adjusting their game plans week in and week out.


Until it's in-game and McDaniels sticks to the gameplan that is clearly not working. That's what I loved about O'Brien last year. If I remember correctly, it always seemed like he made great half-time adjustments.
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pats83


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be the only one who didn't think that the playcalling (although head scratching at times) wasn't the worst thing out there.

At the risk of having every descend upon me, Brady played lack luster and was definitely feeling pressure that wasn't there and left plays out on the field.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pats83 wrote:
I must be the only one who didn't think that the playcalling (although head scratching at times) wasn't the worst thing out there.

At the risk of having every descend upon me, Brady played lack luster and was definitely feeling pressure that wasn't there and left plays out on the field.
So you think they were justified in running a toss sweep with Woodhead on 3rd and 6?
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pats83


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
pats83 wrote:
I must be the only one who didn't think that the playcalling (although head scratching at times) wasn't the worst thing out there.

At the risk of having every descend upon me, Brady played lack luster and was definitely feeling pressure that wasn't there and left plays out on the field.
So you think they were justified in running a toss sweep with Woodhead on 3rd and 6?


No, that was pretty dumb. But at the same time to just point at McDaniels and blame him for the loss with some of our best players playing well below their standards is a bit unfair.
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