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Dean Pees = Greg Mattison?
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
Wow. One game, people.


Except it's been two -- we didn't get much pass rush against Cincy until we were up big. That, coupled with Pees' history, I think it's warranted to at least question whether or not he's going to continue to be more passive than we believe he should be.


It was pretty much universally agreed upon that he did a great job in the opener. He can't just generate a pass rush out of thin air, and with the lack of pass rushing talent we have, sometimes it's better not to be too aggressive.


I don't think he did a great job in the opener. Solid, sure, but not great. Our run defense looked pretty bad and we didn't get much of a pass rush until late in the game when we could just pin our ears back.

And I disagree about it being better to sit back. Sometimes, sure, but not when you're getting picked apart which was what was happening against the Eagles. We saw some blitzes in the 1st half and we were banging Vick up pretty good and held them in check. Come the 2nd half, we weren't generating any sort of pressure and he killed us. To me, it was very Mattison-esque in that we went very conservative with a 2nd half lead which came back to bite us. If sitting back and being more passive is working, then by all means, go for it. However, when blitzing is working and sitting back is not, continuing to sit back and hoping the clock expires doesn't make much sense, right?
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BareYourTeeth


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
^^^ I think the big problem with that lineup above is that it sufficiently destorys our front 7 depth at DE. If either McPhee or Jones or both get tired it could mean that on 3rd down we have to remove both of them to get a rest and not just substitute one for the other. As you said, both provide more speed and that's big in passing situations. I'd cosign that lineup for passing situations only.



In run situations, I'd rather bring back Cody as NT as he may not be as good with getting penetration against the OL, he's better at occupying blockers to keep our LBers untouched. It's like Kemo is out there trying to make plays whereas Cody was out there because he knew being a part of a greater whole would help the team make more plays. Our defense needs the type of unselfishness. Too many guys are playing selfish and not trusting other guys to make plays IMO. I agree that I do want Kemo out of the starting lineup for that reason alone.

Back to the above lineup. Like I said, situation-ally it makes sense. But if we run it too much it could mean being even worse against the run.. and it could mean putting more stress on our DEs without giving them breathers. Neither of which is a good thing.



I understand the concern as far as how it could hurt our depth on the defensive line, that to me is pretty much the only issue with it. Yes, the more speed it provides on passing situations is big because, as everyone knows, it's become a passing league and what better week to debut this new lineup than this week against arguably the best QB in the NFL?

Now, onto how it could damage the run defense. The DE spot wouldn't be changed, as McPhee would stay put. We would be improving at NT because Ngata is better than both Cody and Kemo. Then, there's Arthur Jones who is a good run stuffer (better than McPhee) and has shown the ability to disrupt plays in the backfield so, with the way the league has changed into a pass-happy one and it not really effecting our rush defense I still think the lineup's pros outweigh the cons.

Also, while I was reading LFW today I came across this quote from CBSSports.com
Quote:
“OLB Albert McClellan saw 56 snaps against Philadelphia and easily had the best day of any defender,” wrote Jason Butt. “But what stood out on film was McClellan's ability to set the edge in run support. McClellan played an integral role in forcing Eagles RB LeSean McCoy back inside each time Philadelphia tried to bounce him outside. The Ravens may have stumbled upon someone who could potentially become a future Jarret Johnson, who left Baltimore for San Diego this past offseason.”


I've mentioned a few times how McClellan has more potential at Sam than he does at Rush and with Kruger as our best pass rusher coupled with our lack of pressure it'd benefit us far more to move the players accordingly. Think about how our rotation could look once Suggs come back with him and Kruger pinning their ears back at the Rush position while Upshaw and McClellan are at Sam setting the edge, our depth suddenly won't look to shabby.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ I HAD noticed that with McClellan in the lineup with Upshaw, it seemed that our run defense stepped up as opposed to when Kruger was in the lineup. I hadn't really keyed in on McClellan, but I was coming to suspect if maybe he had something to do with the improved consistency of the run defense.

I'm thinking our best bet in the future will be to rotate McClellan in on obvious running situations to set the edge and flex Upshaw and Kruger in and out of the lineup so as to keep both of them fresh. We saw against Philly that Upshaw just didn't have the endurance to play 100% of the snaps. If we can rotate Kruger/Upshaw as our rush LBer on obvious running downs... and then rotate McClellan out on passing downs, I think that will help to provide our most optimum OLB situation.

Now in terms of the DL. The more I think about it, the more I disagree with that lineup. Ngata's abilities will thrive at an elite level at either NT or DE... that much we know. But the thing that we're missing on defense is enough unsung heroes to get the job done. I look around the league and I see the 49ers with "no name" players at NT making an impact. And how do they make an impact? They eat up blocks. I see the same with the Texans. Look at Casey Hampton all those years ago, he was a force with penetration, but he was never a stat stuffer. Just look at McClellan, the guy hasn't stat stuffed, but his ability to play within the scheme and just play disciplined defense, generally improved the unit over what we saw from the first game.

Moving Ngata inside might provide more interior impact, but it makes us less stout along the outside (by subtracting Ngata from the edge) and we lose a big guy whose capable of forcing defenses to double team. Terrence Cody was/is perfect for the Ravens at NT. He's not a pass rusher- at all- but he was able to force offensive lines to double team him inside... and that's all we need him out there for. They double him inside... that allows Ngata to be even MORE impactful. And once that happens that impact matriculates down to the rest of the defensive starters from McPhee to Kruger to Upshaw.

Ngata last year was playing at a DPOY type level to start off, this year, he hasn't. No doubt Cody not being there to space eat has played a role in that (along with subtraction of Suggs). Defenses can now triple team Ngata much more often and limit his impact. We need a space eater inside. We don't need to waste our most impactful DL at NT, when he's likely to impact an OL more at DE. Just look at the past game. Dean Peas tried to get cute and shift Ngata inside to NT when the Eagles starting center went down... after he made that switch, I noticed an overall drop in defensive pressure... guess when the center went out? At the beginning of the 3rd quarter... which is exactly when our pass rush in general seemed to take a hit. So while it makes sense that maybe McPhee/Jones are more "impactful (think stats)" players than Kemo/Cody... I don't think they make for us having the best defensive unit.

In obvious passing situations, I like the idea of kicking McPhee inside as someone here mentioned (I believe Flaccomania). I'd like to see him lineup at UT with Ngata at NT on occasion. Would probably work well with Lewis blitzing inside... I think McPhee and Upshaw would also work well on stunts.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
GaTechRavens wrote:
Wow. One game, people.


Except it's been two -- we didn't get much pass rush against Cincy until we were up big. That, coupled with Pees' history, I think it's warranted to at least question whether or not he's going to continue to be more passive than we believe he should be.


1. It was pretty much universally agreed upon that he did a great job in the opener. He can't just generate a pass rush out of thin air, 2. and with the lack of pass rushing talent we have, sometimes it's better not to be too aggressive.

1. Where was this universal agreement, I ask. Certainly not from Ravens fans. Because on this side of the border, most people were listing our rush defense as a major concern. Heck the national pundits were listing as a concern as I saw it mentioned on NFLN and read it in a couple articles.

And here, there was a general consensus that the pass rush, was disappointing. Most viewed the pass rush as being a product of being able to pin our ears back once Cincy was feeling the pressure of the encroaching blow out. I also mentioned that it was a problem that our pass rush had to be so mechanically produced or we got no rush.

So by no means, does your universal agreement claim make any sense. I'd like to see some evidence to back it.

2. And to your second point, that's simply laughable. How does it make ANY sense to reduce the pass rush, if we lack strong individual pass rushers. This is the NFL we're talking about, you give a guy time to throw the ball and make all his reads and he's going to kill you everytime. We don't have the LBers with an elite skillset in coverage, so what sense does it make to utilize them in coverage over rushing the passer.

If the evidence points against dropping guys into coverage being less effective than blitzing, than why continue to do it beyond the occasional show of a different look? An occasional 3 man rush, I have no problem with... but by occasion, I mean more like... once every 15 defensive snaps in obvious passing situations.
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MilleniumD2000


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I'm trying to figure out is why Clarence Brooks keeps getting passed over for the d-coordinator job. He is the longest tenured defensive coach and the d-line is always one of our strongest units. I have wanted him to take over the defense ever since Rex left. I'm hoping he gets a shot after Pees leaves or retires because you know Harbaugh isn't going to fire him (see Cam Cameron).
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MilleniumD2000 wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is why Clarence Brooks keeps getting passed over for the d-coordinator job. He is the longest tenured defensive coach and the d-line is always one of our strongest units. I have wanted him to take over the defense ever since Rex left. I'm hoping he gets a shot after Pees leaves or retires because you know Harbaugh isn't going to fire him (see Cam Cameron).

Well he wasn't a better candidate than Chuck Pagano- who I was a big fan of. And ATM, our DL is underachieving to its talent level IMO. It's likely a scheme thing from Peas, but I think some of that responsibility also has to fall onto Brooks. He could stand to do a better job.

Also I personally prefer DB coaches at the defensive coordinator position because they're the ones who most understand how what types of blitzes you call affect your coverages. Like the blitzes that Peas calls seems to work pretty darn well, but all of those blown coverages where we saw Brent Celek wide open... I have to believe that we don't see something like that under Pagano. And this being and becoming more and more of a passing league, I want a DC that specializes in shutting down the pass with awesome coverages that pair with the blitzes.

But as it stands, no coach is more qualified than Brooks. Though I'd suspect Teryl Austin to be in strong consideration for a coordinating position as well... I just want to see him clean up our secondary weaknesses before I'd agree that he's the right man for the job.
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I don't miss Dean Pees.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaZX6R wrote:
Man, I don't miss Dean Pees.


We won't either next year Wink
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
^^^ I HAD noticed that with McClellan in the lineup with Upshaw, it seemed that our run defense stepped up as opposed to when Kruger was in the lineup. I hadn't really keyed in on McClellan, but I was coming to suspect if maybe he had something to do with the improved consistency of the run defense.

I'm thinking our best bet in the future will be to rotate McClellan in on obvious running situations to set the edge and flex Upshaw and Kruger in and out of the lineup so as to keep both of them fresh. We saw against Philly that Upshaw just didn't have the endurance to play 100% of the snaps. If we can rotate Kruger/Upshaw as our rush LBer on obvious running downs... and then rotate McClellan out on passing downs, I think that will help to provide our most optimum OLB situation.


I think the run defense looked better because Upshaw played more. McClellan was still on the field quite a bit in week one and I think the difference between having Upshaw at SAM instead of Kruger is what we noticed. Kruger isn't anything more than average in defending the run while that's something Upshaw excels in. That's not to say McClellan didn't play well though, I was pleasantly surprised by his play in pretty much every facet except getting to the QB but nobody else on the defense really did that well either.
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MilleniumD2000


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
MilleniumD2000 wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is why Clarence Brooks keeps getting passed over for the d-coordinator job. He is the longest tenured defensive coach and the d-line is always one of our strongest units. I have wanted him to take over the defense ever since Rex left. I'm hoping he gets a shot after Pees leaves or retires because you know Harbaugh isn't going to fire him (see Cam Cameron).

Well he wasn't a better candidate than Chuck Pagano- who I was a big fan of. And ATM, our DL is underachieving to its talent level IMO. It's likely a scheme thing from Peas, but I think some of that responsibility also has to fall onto Brooks. He could stand to do a better job.

Also I personally prefer DB coaches at the defensive coordinator position because they're the ones who most understand how what types of blitzes you call affect your coverages. Like the blitzes that Peas calls seems to work pretty darn well, but all of those blown coverages where we saw Brent Celek wide open... I have to believe that we don't see something like that under Pagano. And this being and becoming more and more of a passing league, I want a DC that specializes in shutting down the pass with awesome coverages that pair with the blitzes.

But as it stands, no coach is more qualified than Brooks. Though I'd suspect Teryl Austin to be in strong consideration for a coordinating position as well... I just want to see him clean up our secondary weaknesses before I'd agree that he's the right man for the job.

To be fair, Ngata is pretty much our only lineman that is good. Everyone else on our dline is above average or average. Losing your second best lineman from last year (Corey Redding) is hurting us more then we thought it would. Also, I'm 100% positive that Brooks has no say in rushing 3 lineman on obvious passing downs.

The main reason I believe Brooks would be a great candidate is because he has been around alot of great defensive minds. Take a little bit of Ryan's scheme and sprinkle a dash of Paganos scheme in there and bam! Organized chaos part 2 is back in business. I agree that Pagano was the best candidate. He should have been hired after Rex then Brooks should have been hired after Pagano took a hc job.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Average or above average fits Redding better than any other description you could give him. Even if he was on the team this season I doubt we would have sees any meaningful improvement in either game the Baltimore has played so far.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Average or above average fits Redding better than any other description you could give him. Even if he was on the team this season I doubt we would have sees any meaningful improvement in either game the Baltimore has played so far.


Was I the only guy who thought Redding was above average at the very least?! The guy was a typical JJ kind of starter, nothing flashy but not going to "blow" an assignment and going to make plays here and there.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Average or above average fits Redding better than any other description you could give him. Even if he was on the team this season I doubt we would have sees any meaningful improvement in either game the Baltimore has played so far.


Was I the only guy who thought Redding was above average at the very least?! The guy was a typical JJ kind of starter, nothing flashy but not going to "blow" an assignment and going to make plays here and there.

Well I believed we would miss Redding this season from the outset. I think he was an underrated player. He didn't dominate at anything, but he was able to get above average pressure on the QB while also being a "good" run defender.

Arthur Jones is worse in run support than Redding as I think he's simply above average and McPhee while a "good" pass rusher, isn't great... And when you factor in McPhee's knee issues and he's only looked above average as a pass rusher this season.

I think the difference in talent between Redding and what we have now is a little more than nominal. And when you add in the added depth that we lost, losing him was a pretty solid loss IMO. It's ruined the chemistry of the DL to this point. So I definitely liked what Redding brought to this team.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MilleniumD2000 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
MilleniumD2000 wrote:
What I'm trying to figure out is why Clarence Brooks keeps getting passed over for the d-coordinator job. He is the longest tenured defensive coach and the d-line is always one of our strongest units. I have wanted him to take over the defense ever since Rex left. I'm hoping he gets a shot after Pees leaves or retires because you know Harbaugh isn't going to fire him (see Cam Cameron).

Well he wasn't a better candidate than Chuck Pagano- who I was a big fan of. And ATM, our DL is underachieving to its talent level IMO. It's likely a scheme thing from Peas, but I think some of that responsibility also has to fall onto Brooks. He could stand to do a better job.

Also I personally prefer DB coaches at the defensive coordinator position because they're the ones who most understand how what types of blitzes you call affect your coverages. Like the blitzes that Peas calls seems to work pretty darn well, but all of those blown coverages where we saw Brent Celek wide open... I have to believe that we don't see something like that under Pagano. And this being and becoming more and more of a passing league, I want a DC that specializes in shutting down the pass with awesome coverages that pair with the blitzes.

But as it stands, no coach is more qualified than Brooks. Though I'd suspect Teryl Austin to be in strong consideration for a coordinating position as well... I just want to see him clean up our secondary weaknesses before I'd agree that he's the right man for the job.

To be fair, Ngata is pretty much our only lineman that is good. Everyone else on our dline is above average or average. Losing your second best lineman from last year (Corey Redding) is hurting us more then we thought it would. Also, I'm 100% positive that Brooks has no say in rushing 3 lineman on obvious passing downs.

The main reason I believe Brooks would be a great candidate is because he has been around alot of great defensive minds. Take a little bit of Ryan's scheme and sprinkle a dash of Paganos scheme in there and bam! Organized chaos part 2 is back in business. I agree that Pagano was the best candidate. He should have been hired after Rex then Brooks should have been hired after Pagano took a hc job.

I'd still expect this unit to be more disciplined. Either way whether they're only playing to their talent level or not, they definitely aren't over-achieving and I think that's something we consistently saw with Pagano. His units were always overachievers. And thats something I want out of our defensive coordinator. A guy who can have his unit over-achieve. Either Brooks isn't properly motivating his guys or he doesn't possess the technical prowess. Being around great defensive minds doesn't always mean one inherits those great traits.

I'm not saying Brooks can't be a good DC, I just have no reason to believe that he's going to be anything more than solid if he can't get a Ngata, Cody, McPhee talent to thrive. And I can't give him much credit for McPhee last year because the lockout kept him from impacting McPhee's development and McPhee came out balling from the get-go. I just see no reason that this unit shouldn't be doing better than it is.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH GAWD ORGANIZED CHAOS HOW I MISS YOU!!!!! <333333

RIP.
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