Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Texans Trade CB Sherrick McManis for FB Tyler Clutts
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Houston Texans
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Marco79


Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 11563
Location: Bloomington, IN
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can't you just admit Ben Tate was a good pick Laughing

Antonio Dixon? You mean the 4th RB on the 49ers. Jonathan Dwyer? The guy who can't control his weight? Give Tate some credit.

I really don'y see the 2010 draft class as being that bad. How does trading away our 5th round pick from that year further proof that it was bad? Kareem Jackson is clearly improving and is much better than Travis Johnson, Holiday about to become one of the best returners in the league, Garrett Graham looks like a younger OD, teams would die to have Ben Tate as there started RB, somebody who is as fast and he is powerful, Earl Mitchell is fine depth player and seems to have a shot at keeping the starting job if he plays well and will probably inherit the job after this year. And Darryl Sharpton looked like he was gonna be fine starter for us before he got injured, which doesn't say anything about the draft class it is just bad luck. With Kareem, Holiday, Graham, and Mitchell all starting or getting significant playing time while improving the 2010 draft class is looking pretty solid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Apollo Stallion


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 5604
Location: Battle Red State
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marco79 wrote:
Why can't you just admit Ben Tate was a good pick Laughing

Antonio Dixon? You mean the 4th RB on the 49ers. Jonathan Dwyer? The guy who can't control his weight? Give Tate some credit.

I really don'y see the 2010 draft class as being that bad. How does trading away our 5th round pick from that year further proof that it was bad? Kareem Jackson is clearly improving and is much better than Travis Johnson, Holiday about to become one of the best returners in the league, Garrett Graham looks like a younger OD, teams would die to have Ben Tate as there started RB, somebody who is as fast and he is powerful, Earl Mitchell is fine depth player and seems to have a shot at keeping the starting job if he plays well and will probably inherit the job after this year. And Darryl Sharpton looked like he was gonna be fine starter for us before he got injured, which doesn't say anything about the draft class it is just bad luck. With Kareem, Holiday, Graham, and Mitchell all starting or getting significant playing time while improving the 2010 draft class is looking pretty solid.


Ben Tate is a good player, but that doesn't mean he was a good pick. Understand that there is a big difference.

1) You don't draft backup Rbs with 2nd round picks and that is all he will ever be for the Texans. It is irrelevant that you think other teams will "die" to have him as their starting RB. If we were drafting a backup, I'd rather have QB Colt McCoy who would have given us a better chance vs. the Ravens and is everything you want in a #2 QB. For all of his "greatness" Ben Tate did not touch the football once against the Ravens and unfortunately TJ Yates did.

2) Ben Tate has missed 50% of our football games thus far and is unlikely to be a part of this team beyond his rookie contract. We'll get 3 years out of 2nd round pick. The short shelf life and high injury rate were used to justify taking Mario over Reggie Bush and even more relevant with Tate since we ultimately had to pay the starter $43.5 million ensuring that if Tate becomes a starter in this league, it will be for someone else.

3) Arian Foster has helped show the league what a folly spending high picks on RBs is. 1 of the past 7 drafts (08 ) has generated value with high RB picks. 4 of the past 5 Super Bowl Champions have had running games featuring low round or UDFA backs (Bradshaw/Jacobs, Starks/Grant, P. Thomas/Ivory, Jacobs/Ward)

4) Once the o-line starting clicking with Brown, Smith, Myers, Brisiel, Winston our system became plug and play with backs again. Derrick Ward rushed for a 6.3 ypc average in 2010 when Tate was on IR. Ogbannaya looked stellar in preseason last year an Grimes did this year. Forsett looks like a beast. Drafting a RT replacement for Winston made more sense than Tate.

Please spare me the "but we didn't know Foster was going to be great" response. It's Kubiak and Smith's job to know that and we would have known earlier had Kubiak not insisted on running Chris Brown out there week after week in 09. The Tate pick was an overreaction to the terrible 09 run game which was a direct result of Kubiak running his buddies kid out there for 15 weeks (Kasey Studdard) and Chris White. If they had not managed to whiff in getting a quality CB or RB in the 08 draft that has proven to be "can't miss" at those positions we could have had Mendenhall, CJ2K, Forte, Rice, or Jamal Charles instead of fumblitus and likely an 09 playoff birth.

I give credit where it is due and Kubiak deserves credit for implementing a system that allows a guy like Arian Foster to excel and finally giving him the rock and Rick Smith for signing him. I also give credit for Rick ditching the passive approach that failed in 08 and 10. But if you think a few preseason games makes up the gap between Garrett Graham's potential as 3rd string TE and what Aaron Hernandez or Jimmy Graham have already done, you just don't get it. Saying Kareem Jackson is improving is meaningless considering his rookie year he was the Blaine Gabbert of CBs as part of a unit that sent a playoff caliber team to 6-10 behind one of the all-time worst secondaries in NFL history. Nobody is complaining about where the Texans are now, but the 2010 draft stalled our progress, just like 2008 did and ultimately may be responsible for the cap problems that could keep us stuck at "really good" vs. great.
_________________


12 Year Texans Season Ticket Holder
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SwiftTexan


Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 3868
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
It also is yet further proof of our awful 2010 draft which remains on pace to be worse than 2008 which yielded 1 starter who it took 4 years to develop (D. Brown) and the rest of them were gone in 3 seasons. As of now, Kareem Jackson is a starter again but will have to have a great year to even elevate to Travis Johnson status as worst 1st rounder in team history. No other starters amongst the class so far and aside from Tate's one good year and some minor contributions from Mitchell and Sharpton it's just a class full of roster fodder. Interesting that Graham and Holliday were given up for dead heading into camp, but both came on strong, so they may be the hope for the class.

Regardless as I said at the time and what has held true since, the Texans entire 2010 draft was an exercise in mismanaging the flow by grabbing players just AFTER the talent at the position had been depleted and failing to aggressively move for the value and impact players on the board. To his credit, Rick took charge in 2011 instead of being played by the board again although the jury is still out on Harris and the DBs which have been his bugaboo. As great as Joseph and Manning were last year, we had to go out and spend that money along with resigning OD to a terrible contract because of missed opportunities in 2010 which helped lead to the salary purge of Winston, Brisiel, Ryans, and Mario that's impact we still can't evaluate.

2010 started awry by settling for Kareem instead of moving up for Haden or Thomas. I'll continue to argue the Ben Tate pick for years, but I still say Terence Cody was the missed value especially since Okoye and every other DT was cut. You may think that Tate is special, but I'm not convinced Anthony Dixon and Jonathan Dwyer wouldn't have done the same thing for us last year as 6th rounders (along with James Starks who helped win a Super Bowl) and that taking RBs in the first 2-3 round continues to bring terrible ROI in the past 3 drafts, just like the 3 before 08. That begat the Earl Mitchell reach especially with quality WRs Erik Decker, Andre Roberts, and Mike Williams and TE's Tony Moeaki, Jimmy Graham on the board. Then we reach for Sharpton with Aaron Hernandez and Dennis Pitta still out there and settle for terrible value in Garrett Graham when a guy like Kam Chancellor was sitting there at a need position. In the 6th we again were a few picks shy of the value grabbing Shelley Smith with starters Antonio Brown and David Gettis on the board, while we treat it like a throwaway and grab Holliday who may or may not do something 3 years later as a punt returner (and even if it's a returner, Mark Mariani was still there and has been a pro bowler). Even in the 7th we missed again on the true value with Dorin Dickerson who was supposed to be our "steal" except that Kurt Coleman was there who is now a starting strong safety for the Eagles. Sure it's easy to pull hindsight picks, but I said this same thing 3 years ago and everyone said, you can't tell for 3 years. That bell just rang again in tossing away a 5th round CB for an undrafted Arena League, Canadian League, UFL Fullback like Clutts.


Must be nice to have all that hindsight to aid your analysis and wisdom.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Texansfan713


Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 30299
Location: Houston
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Marco79 wrote:
Why can't you just admit Ben Tate was a good pick Laughing

Antonio Dixon? You mean the 4th RB on the 49ers. Jonathan Dwyer? The guy who can't control his weight? Give Tate some credit.

I really don'y see the 2010 draft class as being that bad. How does trading away our 5th round pick from that year further proof that it was bad? Kareem Jackson is clearly improving and is much better than Travis Johnson, Holiday about to become one of the best returners in the league, Garrett Graham looks like a younger OD, teams would die to have Ben Tate as there started RB, somebody who is as fast and he is powerful, Earl Mitchell is fine depth player and seems to have a shot at keeping the starting job if he plays well and will probably inherit the job after this year. And Darryl Sharpton looked like he was gonna be fine starter for us before he got injured, which doesn't say anything about the draft class it is just bad luck. With Kareem, Holiday, Graham, and Mitchell all starting or getting significant playing time while improving the 2010 draft class is looking pretty solid.


Ben Tate is a good player, but that doesn't mean he was a good pick. Understand that there is a big difference.

1) You don't draft backup Rbs with 2nd round picks and that is all he will ever be for the Texans. It is irrelevant that you think other teams will "die" to have him as their starting RB. If we were drafting a backup, I'd rather have QB Colt McCoy who would have given us a better chance vs. the Ravens and is everything you want in a #2 QB. For all of his "greatness" Ben Tate did not touch the football once against the Ravens and unfortunately TJ Yates did.

2) Ben Tate has missed 50% of our football games thus far and is unlikely to be a part of this team beyond his rookie contract. We'll get 3 years out of 2nd round pick. The short shelf life and high injury rate were used to justify taking Mario over Reggie Bush and even more relevant with Tate since we ultimately had to pay the starter $43.5 million ensuring that if Tate becomes a starter in this league, it will be for someone else.

3) Arian Foster has helped show the league what a folly spending high picks on RBs is. 1 of the past 7 drafts (08 ) has generated value with high RB picks. 4 of the past 5 Super Bowl Champions have had running games featuring low round or UDFA backs (Bradshaw/Jacobs, Starks/Grant, P. Thomas/Ivory, Jacobs/Ward)

4) Once the o-line starting clicking with Brown, Smith, Myers, Brisiel, Winston our system became plug and play with backs again. Derrick Ward rushed for a 6.3 ypc average in 2010 when Tate was on IR. Ogbannaya looked stellar in preseason last year an Grimes did this year. Forsett looks like a beast. Drafting a RT replacement for Winston made more sense than Tate.

Please spare me the "but we didn't know Foster was going to be great" response. It's Kubiak and Smith's job to know that and we would have known earlier had Kubiak not insisted on running Chris Brown out there week after week in 09. The Tate pick was an overreaction to the terrible 09 run game which was a direct result of Kubiak running his buddies kid out there for 15 weeks (Kasey Studdard) and Chris White. If they had not managed to whiff in getting a quality CB or RB in the 08 draft that has proven to be "can't miss" at those positions we could have had Mendenhall, CJ2K, Forte, Rice, or Jamal Charles instead of fumblitus and likely an 09 playoff birth.

I give credit where it is due and Kubiak deserves credit for implementing a system that allows a guy like Arian Foster to excel and finally giving him the rock and Rick Smith for signing him. I also give credit for Rick ditching the passive approach that failed in 08 and 10. But if you think a few preseason games makes up the gap between Garrett Graham's potential as 3rd string TE and what Aaron Hernandez or Jimmy Graham have already done, you just don't get it. Saying Kareem Jackson is improving is meaningless considering his rookie year he was the Blaine Gabbert of CBs as part of a unit that sent a playoff caliber team to 6-10 behind one of the all-time worst secondaries in NFL history. Nobody is complaining about where the Texans are now, but the 2010 draft stalled our progress, just like 2008 did and ultimately may be responsible for the cap problems that could keep us stuck at "really good" vs. great.


You made nice points, but I am sure Texans fans know that the reason why we drafted Tate so high was because we weren't sure who would be our RB in the 2010 season. Most people thought Tate would be our feature back until he got injured. That's when Foster took the job and the rest is history. So I do disagree when you said it was a bad pick. Tate got hurt and Foster took advantage of the job.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Houston Texans All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group