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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Tzimisce wrote: | Shaun Alexander in 2005
Who deserved it? Tiki Barber or Tom Brady
One led a team with an inconsistent 2nd year QB and a middle-of-the-pack offense to an NFC East title at 11-5; the other lost his starting center and left tackle early in the season, had a very thin receiving corps, virtually no running game and a 17th ranked defense, and led his team to an AFC East title at 10-6. |
He may have been a product of the line, but he was a damn good product that year. |
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Tzimisce
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Tzimisce wrote: | Shaun Alexander in 2005
Who deserved it? Tiki Barber or Tom Brady
One led a team with an inconsistent 2nd year QB and a middle-of-the-pack offense to an NFC East title at 11-5; the other lost his starting center and left tackle early in the season, had a very thin receiving corps, virtually no running game and a 17th ranked defense, and led his team to an AFC East title at 10-6. |
He may have been a product of the line, but he was a damn good product that year. |
No doubt, but he also fumbled 5 times, only beat out Barber by 20 rush yards and only had 78 receiving yards to Barber's 530. For my money what Barber did as a RB was far more impressive.
And don't even bother bringing up the TD record because we all know how inflated rushing TD numbers can get. 18 of the 27 rush TDs Alexander posted came from 5 yards out or fewer, and 10 of them were from 1 yard. Tiki scored only 11 times, but 7 of those were from > 5 yards out and 6 of his 9 rushing TDs were from > 10 yards out. He had Brandon Jacobs vulture 7 goal line TDs away from him.
If you want to go by the definition of who is most valuable, Barber or Brady were head and shoulders above Alexander that year. That Seahawks team was stacked and could've easily taken their division without him. The Pats were in a dogfight with the Dolphins and the Giants with the Redskins and Cowboys in their respective divisions that year.
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Tzimisce wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | Tzimisce wrote: | Shaun Alexander in 2005
Who deserved it? Tiki Barber or Tom Brady
One led a team with an inconsistent 2nd year QB and a middle-of-the-pack offense to an NFC East title at 11-5; the other lost his starting center and left tackle early in the season, had a very thin receiving corps, virtually no running game and a 17th ranked defense, and led his team to an AFC East title at 10-6. |
He may have been a product of the line, but he was a damn good product that year. |
No doubt, but he also fumbled 5 times, only beat out Barber by 20 rush yards and only had 78 receiving yards to Barber's 530. For my money what Barber did as a RB was far more impressive. If you want to go by the definition of who is most valuable, Barber or Brady were head and shoulders about Alexander that year. That Seahawks team was stacked and could've easily taken their division without him. The Pats were in a dogfight with the Dolphins and the Giants with the Redskins and Cowboys in their respective divisions that year. And don't even bother bringing up the TD record because we all know how inflated rushing TD numbers can get. 18 of the 27 rush TDs Alexander posted came from 5 yards out or fewer, and 10 of them were from 1 yard. Tiki scored only 11 times, but 7 of those were from > 5 yards out and 6 of his 9 rushing TDs were from > 10 yards out. He had Brandon Jacobs vulture 7 goal line TDs away from him. |
They did get 25+ TDs out of Alexander. That's pretty huge. There are plenty of RBs who can't punch it in, so its nothing to sneeze at. Like Tolbert is supposedly a great short yardage guy, but he's fumbled quite a few times in short yardage. I'll take the guy who gets in the end zone, even from 1 yard out.
Maybe he shouldn't have been MVP, but he was pretty dang good |
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Tzimisce
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Well then I have to ask you this:
Player A: 237 carries, 1069 rush yards, 6 rush TDs; 51 catches, 547 rec. yards, 3 rec. TDs
on an 11-5 team whose QB had a 86.5 passer rating and a defense ranked 10th in points allowed
Player B: 229 carries, 1008 rush yards, 13 rush TDs; 12 rec, 85 rec. yards, 0 rec. TDs
on a 14-2 team whose QB had a 111.0 passer rating and a defense ranked 8th in points allowed
Which player was more valuable to his team?
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Tzimisce wrote: | Well then I have to ask you this:
Player A: 237 carries, 1069 rush yards, 6 rush TDs; 51 catches, 547 rec. yards, 3 rec. TDs
on an 11-5 team whose QB had a 86.5 passer rating and a defense ranked 10th in points allowed
Player B: 229 carries, 1008 rush yards, 13 rush TDs; 12 rec, 85 rec. yards, 0 rec. TDs
on a 14-2 team whose QB had a 111.0 passer rating and a defense ranked 8th in points allowed
Which player was more valuable to his team? |
Forte vs BJGE......
Forte is obviously more valuable as a piece, but 4 extra TDs is more points on the board. I'd go Forte, but it isn't a fair comparison here.
I mean, the thing is, it wasn't 4 TDs, it was a difference of 17 TDs. Tiki put up about 500 more yards and was pretty valuable to the Giants., but I'm not sure he made up for 17 TDs. |
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Tzimisce
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Let's not forget that Alexander fumbled 5 times compared to 1 for Tiki, and the fact that Brandon Jacobs vultured 7 goal line TDs from him.
Honestly, rushing TDs have to be the most overrated stat in football in this era because of how much they affect fantasy rankings. It was a record that was broken 3 times in a 5-year span. I think that, to a large extent, devalued the accomplishment.
Bottom line is that Shaun Alexander had a great year in '05 but was not mvp worthy because circumstances were ridiculously accommodating for him to put up monster numbers that year, and when you read between the lines even those monster numbers don't seem as impressive.
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Fired-Up
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:46 am Post subject: |
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You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about?
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The Packers are the premier franchise in the NFL. DEAL WITH IT. |
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prorb
Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
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2008
Manning
Comp: 337 pct: 66.8 Yds: 4002 AVG: 7.2 TD: 27 int: 12 Rate: 95
Brees
Comp: 413 pct: 65.0 Yds: 5069 AVG: 8 TD: 34 int: 17 Rate: 96.2
2009
Manning
Comp: 396 pct: 68.8 Yds: 4500 AVG: 7.9 TD: 33 int: 16 Rate: 99
Brees (15 games)
Comp: 363 pct: 70.6 Yds: 4388 AVG: 8.5 TD: 34 int: 11 Rate: 109.6
2011
Rodgers (15 games)
Comp: 343 pct: 68.3 Yds: 4643 AVG: 9.2 TD: 45 int: 6 Rate: 122.5
Brees
Comp: 468 pct: 71.2 Yds: 5476 AVG: 8.3 TD: 46 int: 14 Rate: 110.6 |
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Harper41
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:21 am Post subject: |
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Drew Brees got robbed in 09.
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Bobikus
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Fired-Up wrote: | | You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about? |
Winning is a team effort that several dozen people have an impact on each game. MVP is an individual award.
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Geno Smith, Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, and Bruce Irvin will all have at least 1 pro bowl season each by the end of the decade.
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Babylon
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobikus wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about? |
Winning is a team effort that several dozen people have an impact on each game. MVP is an individual award. |
For a comical example, 2008 Colts rank in points:
Offense: 13th, Defense: 7th
Robert Mathis for 2008 MVP. |
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Bohlmann20
Joined: 22 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mostly all of them I've been around to witness, but oh well. They're always going to pick the same players, so the award is arbitrary and only has as much weight as you wish to give it. |
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Fired-Up
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 788
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobikus wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about? |
Winning is a team effort that several dozen people have an impact on each game. MVP is an individual award. |
Yes, but some players clearly have a large impact. Winning is what it's about. Manning wins. Througout his career no player in the NFL has been even as remotely responsible for his teams winning ways as Manning has.
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The Packers are the premier franchise in the NFL. DEAL WITH IT. |
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prorb
Joined: 15 Aug 2010
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Babylon wrote: |
2008 Colts rank in points:
Offense: 13th, Defense: 7th
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2008
Saints
Offense: 1st (28.9 Pts/G)
Defense: 26th (24.6 Pts/G)
2009
Saints
Offense: 1st (31.9 Pts/G)
Defense: 20th (21.3 Pts/G)
Colts
Offense: 7th (26 Pts/G)
Defense: 8th (19.2 Pts/G) |
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tonyto3690
Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 5506
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fired-Up wrote: | | Bobikus wrote: | | Fired-Up wrote: | | You know these type of threads always amuse me. The key to winning the MVP is to win, win, win and just win baby. If you want to win the MVP lock up the #1 seed. You have to make relevant plays and you have to have relevant stats. Their needs to be legitmacy to your game. That's just how it is. Just win baby. Manning deserved his 2008 and 2009 MVPs based on the fact that he just won. The man won. Isn't that what it's about? |
Winning is a team effort that several dozen people have an impact on each game. MVP is an individual award. |
Yes, but some players clearly have a large impact. Winning is what it's about. Manning wins. Througout his career no player in the NFL has been even as remotely responsible for his teams winning ways as Manning has. |
Yeah it couldn't have anything to do with having a loaded roster in an incredibly weak division.
Put Brady/Brees/Rodgers/any elite QB ever in Peyton's shoes and they win a bunch of games as well. It's debatable whether they score as much points or win more or less games, but lets not pretend like Peyton was carrying a horrible team- as much as ESPN would love to paint it that way.
Manning flaps his arms more than any other QB in the NFL. That doesn't make him more instrumental to team success. He's just a HOF QB who played on very good teams and did a lot of arm waving and most fans have no idea what that means but boy does it look impressive! And I mean Gruden says Peyton is doing something impressive so it must be super difficult and good!
The only MVP that Peyton really earned was in 2004. All three of his other ones were based off name and not actual production or circumstance.
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| C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote: |
Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever |
Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT. |
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