Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Could we give up 79+ sacks in 2012?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Arizona Cardinals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
We may not get to 79 but I don't think we as far off as you have suggested.

70 is certaintly not out of the relm of possibility.


Yes it is. I gave you 9 sacks out of the clear blue sky plus 2 additional sacks that Snyder may allow over what Rex Hadnot allowed last season and that only hits 65.

Forget 79, you're well short of 70. And again, that includes 9 sacks that I just pulled out of nowhere, based on absolutely nothing. AND it includes both of our quarterbacks playing with both of them taking sacks at last years rates.

Pass protection isn't any more of a worry now than it was last year. The run game should be your worry.


Were prepared to trot out second year, undrafted free agent DJ Young as our starting LT, an interior line that is below average with perhaps the worst pass blocking RG in football, and three RTs who couldn't fend off Jeremy Bridges for four weeks.

Our quarterbacks are well below average and our backs aren't terrific in blitz pickup.

Our best blocking TE is coming off an injury. We have NEVER consistently ran the football under Ken. We throw. ALOT.

How can you honestly believe that the running game is in more trouble than the passing game?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52978
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
We may not get to 79 but I don't think we as far off as you have suggested.

70 is certaintly not out of the relm of possibility.


Yes it is. I gave you 9 sacks out of the clear blue sky plus 2 additional sacks that Snyder may allow over what Rex Hadnot allowed last season and that only hits 65.

Forget 79, you're well short of 70. And again, that includes 9 sacks that I just pulled out of nowhere, based on absolutely nothing. AND it includes both of our quarterbacks playing with both of them taking sacks at last years rates.

Pass protection isn't any more of a worry now than it was last year. The run game should be your worry.


Were prepared to trot out second year, undrafted free agent DJ Young as our starting LT, an interior line that is below average with perhaps the worst pass blocking RG in football, and three RTs who couldn't fend off Jeremy Bridges for four weeks.

Our quarterbacks are well below average and our backs aren't terrific in blitz pickup.

Our best blocking TE is coming off an injury. We have NEVER consistently ran the football under Ken. We throw. ALOT.

How can you honestly believe that the running game is in more trouble than the passing game?


Easy answer: I watched football last season
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
We may not get to 79 but I don't think we as far off as you have suggested.

70 is certaintly not out of the relm of possibility.


Yes it is. I gave you 9 sacks out of the clear blue sky plus 2 additional sacks that Snyder may allow over what Rex Hadnot allowed last season and that only hits 65.

Forget 79, you're well short of 70. And again, that includes 9 sacks that I just pulled out of nowhere, based on absolutely nothing. AND it includes both of our quarterbacks playing with both of them taking sacks at last years rates.

Pass protection isn't any more of a worry now than it was last year. The run game should be your worry.


Were prepared to trot out second year, undrafted free agent DJ Young as our starting LT, an interior line that is below average with perhaps the worst pass blocking RG in football, and three RTs who couldn't fend off Jeremy Bridges for four weeks.

Our quarterbacks are well below average and our backs aren't terrific in blitz pickup.

Our best blocking TE is coming off an injury. We have NEVER consistently ran the football under Ken. We throw. ALOT.

How can you honestly believe that the running game is in more trouble than the passing game?


Easy answer: I watched football last season


That's a clown answer bro.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52978
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize if the truth bothers you.

I'm not gonna jump up and down and pull my hair out over a situation that has no tangible difference than the situation I watched a year ago. Worst pass protecting LT and RT in 2012? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Poor guards? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Backs who struggle in protection? Big deal, we had that last season. There's nothing different about this line in 2012 than there was in 2011, except for the running game. If that truth bothers you, I again apologize but it's a truth you're gonna have to deal with eventually. Your little 70-79 sack kick is incorrect and overzealous.

Once again, you're "Whiz doesn't run the ball" argument falls short. Attempts don't cover up the fact that our run game efficiency made our offense last season. Once again, this is a truth. It's not an opinion, it's a truth.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
I apologize if the truth bothers you.

I'm not gonna jump up and down and pull my hair out over a situation that has no tangible difference than the situation I watched a year ago. Worst pass protecting LT and RT in 2012? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Poor guards? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Backs who struggle in protection? Big deal, we had that last season. There's nothing different about this line in 2012 than there was in 2011, except for the running game. If that truth bothers you, I again apologize but it's a truth you're gonna have to deal with eventually. Your little 70-79 sack kick is incorrect and overzealous.

Once again, you're "Whiz doesn't run the ball" argument falls short. Attempts don't cover up the fact that our run game efficiency made our offense last season. Once again, this is a truth. It's not an opinion, it's a truth.


I believe that our RG is worse in pass protection then Hadnot was a year ago.

I believe DJ Young is at least as bad or worse in pass pro than Levi Brown. Way worse. If an undrafted free agent that's in his second year is better in any facet over our 1st round, recently extended former starter then the whole organization should relieved of their football duties.

I believe we will struggle with either Skelton and Kolb, while both receive playing time at points during the season. If you honestly believe that Skelton is gonna keep this job 16 games, then I feel sorry for you.

Both will be inconsistent and both will struggle, partially because of this offensive line.

We will be worse up front than last year when we gave up 54 sacks. Take it to the bank.

25 sacks worse? The remains to be seen, but with our schedule and those edge rushers to worry about, I think YES it is possible.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yibbyl


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 2296
Location: Redding, CA
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotta say, as much as I am disappointed with what I perceive will be our OL, I'm not buying the possible 79 sack season either. The fact that we have had a less than conclusive RT competition, for example, doesn't mean that the players haven't showcased good pass blocking skills. It could be that no one has proven to be a significant mauler who could open up rushing lanes. Even more likely is that no one has been able to show he had an obviously superior desired COMBINATION of pass protection and run blocking skills. Truth is, we don't know the reason Whiz hasn't whole-heartedly endorsed one over the other. Same goes for the LT position.

I do think there are better players out there than we have in every single position on this OL. I also believe that they will struggle both pass protecting and with run blocking, depending on the D they face. However, you gotta know that if our QB's are getting killed at a rate that would be record-breaking, Whiz is going to make adjustments in personnel, plays called, and blocking strategies in an effort not to be labelled as the architect of the worst pass protection in Cards history. Have faith if nothing else in the coach's pride!
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52978
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
I apologize if the truth bothers you.

I'm not gonna jump up and down and pull my hair out over a situation that has no tangible difference than the situation I watched a year ago. Worst pass protecting LT and RT in 2012? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Poor guards? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Backs who struggle in protection? Big deal, we had that last season. There's nothing different about this line in 2012 than there was in 2011, except for the running game. If that truth bothers you, I again apologize but it's a truth you're gonna have to deal with eventually. Your little 70-79 sack kick is incorrect and overzealous.

Once again, you're "Whiz doesn't run the ball" argument falls short. Attempts don't cover up the fact that our run game efficiency made our offense last season. Once again, this is a truth. It's not an opinion, it's a truth.


I believe that our RG is worse in pass protection then Hadnot was a year ago.

I believe DJ Young is at least as bad or worse in pass pro than Levi Brown. Way worse. If an undrafted free agent that's in his second year is better in any facet over our 1st round, recently extended former starter then the whole organization should relieved of their football duties.

I believe we will struggle with either Skelton and Kolb, while both receive playing time at points during the season. If you honestly believe that Skelton is gonna keep this job 16 games, then I feel sorry for you.

Both will be inconsistent and both will struggle, partially because of this offensive line.

We will be worse up front than last year when we gave up 54 sacks. Take it to the bank.

25 sacks worse? The remains to be seen, but with our schedule and those edge rushers to worry about, I think YES it is possible.


-Great, I'll conceded. Adam Snyder is worse in pass protection than Rex Hadnot. By your own numbers, he's 2 sacks worse. I'll give you 2 additional sacks from last season, no questions asked
-I already conceded 20 sacks allowed for DJ Young. 20 is a ridiculous number that has a very small amount of chance to be met but I'm giving it to you anyway. I'll give you 9 additional sacks from last season, no questions asked
-We struggled with Kolb and Skelton last year. Both guys started games last year. Therefore I give you 0 additional sacks from last season
-Both were inconsistent and struggled last season. Therefore, I give you 0 additional sacks from last season

You tell me 25 additional sacks from last season is possible and yet you can only reasonably justify 11. Where are your other 14? We all want to know. Where are the other 14 sacks we're gonna allow? Show us where they are.

Unless you have another reasonable argument you'd like to present, your 70-79 sacks remain incorrect and overzealous.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52978
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yibbyl wrote:
Gotta say, as much as I am disappointed with what I perceive will be our OL, I'm not buying the possible 79 sack season either. The fact that we have had a less than conclusive RT competition, for example, doesn't mean that the players haven't showcased good pass blocking skills. It could be that no one has proven to be a significant mauler who could open up rushing lanes. Even more likely is that no one has been able to show he had an obviously superior desired COMBINATION of pass protection and run blocking skills. Truth is, we don't know the reason Whiz hasn't whole-heartedly endorsed one over the other. Same goes for the LT position.

I do think there are better players out there than we have in every single position on this OL. I also believe that they will struggle both pass protecting and with run blocking, depending on the D they face. However, you gotta know that if our QB's are getting killed at a rate that would be record-breaking, Whiz is going to make adjustments in personnel, plays called, and blocking strategies in an effort not to be labelled as the architect of the worst pass protection in Cards history. Have faith if nothing else in the coach's pride!


The bolded is a good argument but that's not MY argument. So, we have a less than conclusive RT situation. I state again, we had the exact same less than conclusive situation in 2011. Brandon Keith ranked in the 100s, THE 100S, in pass protection from PFF IN 2011. THE 100s!!!!!! I believe only 2 qualifying tackles (Had to have played "x" amount of snaps to qualify) graded out worse with PFF. That means we can have the 3rd-4th worst RT in the ENTIRE LEAGUE IN 2012 and see no see tangible downgraded difference in pass protection performance.

That's not sinking in with Johnny.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
I apologize if the truth bothers you.

I'm not gonna jump up and down and pull my hair out over a situation that has no tangible difference than the situation I watched a year ago. Worst pass protecting LT and RT in 2012? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Poor guards? Big deal. We had that in 2011. Backs who struggle in protection? Big deal, we had that last season. There's nothing different about this line in 2012 than there was in 2011, except for the running game. If that truth bothers you, I again apologize but it's a truth you're gonna have to deal with eventually. Your little 70-79 sack kick is incorrect and overzealous.

Once again, you're "Whiz doesn't run the ball" argument falls short. Attempts don't cover up the fact that our run game efficiency made our offense last season. Once again, this is a truth. It's not an opinion, it's a truth.


I believe that our RG is worse in pass protection then Hadnot was a year ago.

I believe DJ Young is at least as bad or worse in pass pro than Levi Brown. Way worse. If an undrafted free agent that's in his second year is better in any facet over our 1st round, recently extended former starter then the whole organization should relieved of their football duties.

I believe we will struggle with either Skelton and Kolb, while both receive playing time at points during the season. If you honestly believe that Skelton is gonna keep this job 16 games, then I feel sorry for you.

Both will be inconsistent and both will struggle, partially because of this offensive line.

We will be worse up front than last year when we gave up 54 sacks. Take it to the bank.

25 sacks worse? The remains to be seen, but with our schedule and those edge rushers to worry about, I think YES it is possible.


-Great, I'll conceded. Adam Snyder is worse in pass protection than Rex Hadnot. By your own numbers, he's 2 sacks worse. I'll give you 2 additional sacks from last season, no questions asked
-I already conceded 20 sacks allowed for DJ Young. 20 is a ridiculous number that has a very small amount of chance to be met but I'm giving it to you anyway. I'll give you 9 additional sacks from last season, no questions asked
-We struggled with Kolb and Skelton last year. Both guys started games last year. Therefore I give you 0 additional sacks from last season
-Both were inconsistent and struggled last season. Therefore, I give you 0 additional sacks from last season

You tell me 25 additional sacks from last season is possible and yet you can only reasonably justify 11. Where are your other 14? We all want to know. Where are the other 14 sacks we're gonna allow? Show us where they are.

Unless you have another reasonable argument you'd like to present, your 70-79 sacks remain incorrect and overzealous.


From what I've seen already in his brief stint with us. Snyder will resort to his old was and give up somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 sacks.

Have you watched him play?

RT is still a mess and gave up 13.5 sacks last year. Bump that up say 3-4 due to the schedule.

Lyle has appeared to regress, and is getting dominated this preseason.

His 2 goes to 4.

Jeff King was healthy last year, and this year he's coming off an injury. Our protection as a whole will struggle because of that in the early goings against Seattle, New England and Philly.

Tack on 2 more.

You undermining the schedule Champ. Those edge rushers will eat this unit alive.

We took advantage late in the season when we faced teams without elite edge rushers like Cinci, Cleveland and Dallas without Ware for most of the game. There's Levi's "magical"second half in a nut shell. Weaker edge rushes late.

St. Louis's rush will be much improved now that Quinn is manning one the edge spots full time.

Jared Allen, Jason Babin, Trent Cole, Chris Clemons, Cameron Wake, Chris Long, Mario Williams, Aldon Smith, Clay Matthews, John Abraham, Julius Peppers, Cliff Avril among many others are all on the schedule...

Going up against DJ Young who was dominated by the Raiders second team and D'Anthony Batiste who you dispise.

I'm not even going through all the interior DT Snyder will face.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52978
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, we faced Long, Quinn, Smith, Clemons, Allen, Cole and Babin last season. Ya that still leaves Mario, Peppers, Wake, Matthews, Abraham and Avril but I can easily counteract that with 2011 opponents Woodley, Suggs, Ware, JPP, Tuck, Osi, Orakpo, Kerrigan, Johnson.

What else ya got?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
LOL, we faced Long, Quinn, Smith, Clemons, Allen, Cole and Babin last season. Ya that still leaves Mario, Peppers, Wake, Matthews, Abraham and Avril but I can easily counteract that with 2011 opponents Woodley, Suggs, Ware, JPP, Tuck, Osi, Orakpo, Kerrigan, Johnson.

What else ya got?


Ware was out for most of our game. Quinn was a rotational rookie, and is now a starter, the same goes for Aldon Smith.

Charles Johnson is not Julius Peppers not matter how much Carolina wants people to believe that.

The schedule this year spreads out the edge rushers way more than last year. Again, it got soft toward the end of the year which was why Levi was able to play better.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52978
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
LOL, we faced Long, Quinn, Smith, Clemons, Allen, Cole and Babin last season. Ya that still leaves Mario, Peppers, Wake, Matthews, Abraham and Avril but I can easily counteract that with 2011 opponents Woodley, Suggs, Ware, JPP, Tuck, Osi, Orakpo, Kerrigan, Johnson.

What else ya got?


Ware was out for most of our game. Quinn was a rotational rookie, and is now a starter, the same goes for Aldon Smith.

Charles Johnson is not Julius Peppers not matter how much Carolina wants people to believe that.

The schedule this year spreads out the edge rushers way more than last year. Again, it got soft toward the end of the year which was why Levi was able to play better.


That's ok if Ware missed a good chunk of the 2nd half. Fortunately for my argument, we still allowed Kevin Kolb to be sacked 5 times in that football game. So, there's that.

Smith played over 84% (Per PFF) of San Francisco's passing down snaps, which is all this argument is conducive to. That's not a rotational player. Where Smith rotated was in and out of early down running situations. Again, not conducive to this argument. You state that Charles Johnson isn't Julius Peppers. Cool, Johnson isn't Peppers. I conceded with a fight. Unforunately for your argument, the numbers state that Clay Matthews isn't on the same planet as Terrell Suggs, as much as people want to believe that. Pretty easy cancel out.

What else?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50178
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why assume Lyle is going to regress, he has struggled in the preseason before? Why are you assuming that Adam Snyder is going to give up 8-10 sacks at guard when the only times he has given up that many were his seasons at LT and RT? RT is still a mess yes, but it was a complete and utter mess last year too. Bridges and Keith last season were both among the worst RT's in pass protection. It is a lateral move WHOMEVER we put in there. Jeff King also allowed sacks last season, it is not like he was perfect.

We allowed 54 sacks last season; Lets assume worst case;

Our LT's allow 20, our RT's allow 20, Our Guards combined to allow 15, and Lyle allows 5. That is still only 60 sacks, and those numbers are over the top.

Levi was not good in pass protection. He got better, but he was still not good, a large reason for Levi's "magical" second half was not the edge rushers we faced (Long/Cole/Smith/Long/Ware/Smith/Dunlap/Clemons) The Browns are the only team who really did not have an elite edge rusher was the Browns and we still managed to get sacks 4 times in that game too. It was John Skelton.

This team may give up 60, but 70, let alone 79 is way out of kilter.
_________________
FFMD 2014 - ARIZONA CARDINALS GM - CLICK ME - YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50178
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
Skelton was sacked 23 times last year, while Kolb was sacked 30 times.

Kolb played in 9 games, while Skelton played in 8.

The difference in sacks per player isn't as wide of a gap as one would assume.


Skelton was sacked on 7.7% of all dropbacks, Kolb wa sacked on 10.6 of all dropbacks.

Assuming 600+ pass attempts Skelton would get sacked 46-47 times, Kolb would get sacked 64-65 times.

You see the difference starting to form now?
_________________
FFMD 2014 - ARIZONA CARDINALS GM - CLICK ME - YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand your arguement Champ. Have to agree to disagree. I honestly believe that this offense has a chance to challenge the franchise's sack record based on what I've seen.

Unless we pull off a trade to bring in a quality starter, I think 70 is really possible.

Worst offensive line in football. Worst offensive line coach in football. Poor quarterback play and injury prone running backs.

Good luck.

Just my opinion.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Arizona Cardinals All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 2 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group