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Top 50 Franchise Cornerstones: 2012 (COMPLETED!)
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EliteTexan80


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
Fired-Up wrote:
Since the youth category is an admittingly arbitrary cut-off wouldn't it make sense to raise the age of QB's to under 30. A 29 year old QB is not the same as a 29 year RB. One is smack in the prime of his career and should have another 4-5 more years of dominace. The other is winding down.


- Remembers the posters favorite team

- Looks up Aaron Rodgers and see he's 28 already

- returns to normal life activity


OP's a packer too, isn't he?

does make a bit of sense, specifically for RBs and QBs, as no one will consider a 28-year old RB a 'cornerstone' because he's over the hill, but most will consider a 28 or 29-year old QB as a 'cornerstone'

of course, those are the 2 primary positions it would affect


I think there is some merit to it, but also - I'd imagine putting a list together such as this is a cumbersome activity within itself. Having to segment the age by position would prove to be a daunting task within itself. I don't have the time to dedicate to it, but I'm sure that a "Top players over 28" list would be met with a lot of good reactions.

If someone were to take on that task... Wink
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
Let's see if i can come up with a quick 50 off the top of my head. Excuse me if some are too old.

Cam
Stafford
Rodgers
Ryan
Bradford
Flacco

Foster
CJ
McFadden
Williams
Mathews
Rice

CJ
AJ
Julio
Nicks
Gronk
Britt
Graham
Davis
Wallace

Thomas
Long
Roos
Okung
Brown
Staley
Gross
Myers
Tyron Smith

JPP
Woodley
Aldon
Von Miller
Bowman
Adkins
Suh
Ngata
Lee
Willis
Watt


Haden
Revis
Carr
Thomas
Berry
Chancellor
PP
Jo Jo (too old)?


Bryan Anger???? Laughing



Close to 50!



UPDATED LIST
No Forte? No Melton?
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gronk is a given and I would have Mayo in the top 50. That's probably it for the Pats, considering Hernandez didn't make it.
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green24


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RashaanSalaami wrote:
green24 wrote:
Revis and Mangold should make this list. I wouldn't be surprised if David Harris, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, or Muhammad Wilkerson made the list or got an HM.


They've made their fair share of appearances on this list in the past. Mangold, Harris, and D'Brick have hung up the cleats as they moved to 28 years old.

Glad to hear the local player from Temple doing well this camp and through a week of preseason. Excited to watch him play this year.


I'm expecting a big year from Wilk. According to the coaching staff, he has been the second best player in camp (behind Revis).
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
How do you leave Sean Lee off


Unbelievable - you're better than that RS


Hope this is a joke.

Lee is good, but doesnt desrve to be up there after one good season. It wasnt an elite year either.


But you think Bowman should be?
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MightyMouse07


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
MaddHatter wrote:
How do you leave Sean Lee off


Unbelievable - you're better than that RS


Hope this is a joke.

Lee is good, but doesnt desrve to be up there after one good season. It wasnt an elite year either.


But you think Bowman should be?


or Mayo? Laughing
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
baconrad3 wrote:
bradford at number five^^??? Laughing he should be way down the list...if at all on it. if freeman can't be on the list, then how can bradford be #5?



There was no order to my list. I just typed by position.



lol....whoops. i dont know how i missed that.

but i still dont agree with bradford even being on the list....dude had an overrated rookie year and a pretty bad soph year. freeman is a better qb, isn't that much older than him, and is pretty marketable.
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superfly3176


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 50 Franchise Cornerstones: 2012 Reply with quote

Would like to know how Sean Lee isn't a proven impact player yet? He had 105 tackle last season to go along with 2 fumble recovers and 4 interceptions. Please tell me how he's a notch below.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baconrad3 wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
baconrad3 wrote:
bradford at number five^^??? Laughing he should be way down the list...if at all on it. if freeman can't be on the list, then how can bradford be #5?



There was no order to my list. I just typed by position.



lol....whoops. i dont know how i missed that.

but i still dont agree with bradford even being on the list....dude had an overrated rookie year and a pretty bad soph year. freeman is a better qb, isn't that much older than him, and is pretty marketable.


I don't know man. I don't think Freeman is that good. I'll give Bradford a small pass due to complete lack of receiving weapons and injuries. If he sucks this year, I will consider him bust worthy.

Freeman played like absolute trash last year. He doesn't get the benefit IMO.

But it's just that, my opinion.
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 50 Franchise Cornerstones: 2012 Reply with quote

superfly3176 wrote:
Would like to know how Sean Lee isn't a proven impact player yet? He had 105 tackle last season to go along with 2 fumble recovers and 4 interceptions. Please tell me how he's a notch below.


And the year before that he had 32 tackles... One season doesn't really make a franchise player... Especially on a defense that year in and year out I hear used as an excuse for Romo's lack of post-season berths. Leading a bad defense is worthy of being a franchise player now?
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
Let's see if i can come up with a quick 50 off the top of my head. Excuse me if some are too old.

Cam
Stafford
Rodgers
Ryan
Bradford
Flacco

Foster
CJ
McFadden
Williams
Mathews
Rice

CJ
AJ
Julio
Nicks
Gronk
Britt
Graham
Davis
Wallace

Thomas
Long
Roos
Okung
Brown
Staley
Gross
Myers
Tyron Smith

JPP
Woodley
Aldon
Von Miller
Bowman
Adkins
Suh
Ngata
Lee
Willis


Haden
Revis
Carr
Thomas
Berry
Chancellor
PP
Jo Jo (too old)?


Bryan Anger???? Laughing



Close to 50!



UPDATED LIST


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MightyMouse07


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 50 Franchise Cornerstones: 2012 Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
superfly3176 wrote:
Would like to know how Sean Lee isn't a proven impact player yet? He had 105 tackle last season to go along with 2 fumble recovers and 4 interceptions. Please tell me how he's a notch below.


And the year before that he had 32 tackles... One season doesn't really make a franchise player... Especially on a defense that year in and year out I hear used as an excuse for Romo's lack of post-season berths. Leading a bad defense is worthy of being a franchise player now?


The year before he was a rookie getting part time playing while recovering from injury. According to the criteria he should at least be an honorable mention. The only players worth a damn on defense were Lee and Ware, we both know two players can't make a defense.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 50 Franchise Cornerstones: 2012 Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
superfly3176 wrote:
Would like to know how Sean Lee isn't a proven impact player yet? He had 105 tackle last season to go along with 2 fumble recovers and 4 interceptions. Please tell me how he's a notch below.


And the year before that he had 32 tackles... One season doesn't really make a franchise player... Especially on a defense that year in and year out I hear used as an excuse for Romo's lack of post-season berths. Leading a bad defense is worthy of being a franchise player now?


Sorry he only got 32 tackles recovering from an injury and playing part-time. But if one year players are on this list (and I know a few will be) then he should have been.
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RashaanSalaami


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: Top 50 Franchise Cornerstones: 2012 Reply with quote

MightyMouse07 wrote:
Quote:
1. Youth. As I have in the past, I used an arbitrary cut-off date that should afford each player enough time to lay down imprints on the future and compete for a Championship. This cut-off requires players to be under the age of 28 by September 1, 2012.
2. Potential, Production, Risk. How good is the player right now? How good can the player be at his peak? How likely is he to achieve that peak? How likely is it that he’ll fail? A cornerstone ideally has a low chance of failure (the reason there are no rookies on this list), a good chance of becoming elite (if he’s not there yet), and some high level of productivity right now. Processing these components together yields a good idea of how valuable that player will be on the field now and in the future.
3. Maturity. An obvious criterion here is whether or not the player simple stays out of trouble and says the right things to the media. A player addicted to shenanigans will not be considered. Cornerstones are supposed to bring stability, not volatility, to an organization. Run-ins with the law are devastating to the team as they can lead to suspensions and humiliation for fans. Will the player demand a trade or miss practice to chase money? All of this does play a factor in this component, but most importantly, how well can he lead his team on and off the field?
4. Position. Quarterbacks rest at the top of the pyramid, followed by pass rushers, and so on and so forth.
5. Marketability. To me, this criterion places a distant fifth, but wasn’t completely ignored. This ties in loosely with the athlete’s position, but will he be able to sell seats? Can he become a brand or will he be someone that garners hype even among casual fans? Whether it’s speed or charisma, an athlete can not only inject wealth into a franchise by simply helping them win, but also by winning over more fans and selling products every day of the week.


These are your criteria for grading these cornerstones. So lets review Sean Lee for a second.

Sean Lee, former 2nd round pick from Linbacker U (Penn St.).

What has Sean Lee done in his career?

Well he began his career as a backup to Bradie James and Kyle Brooking two years ago. In some of his only real playing time on the field he managed to pick off Peyton Manning, not once but twice and took one of those picks to the house. It was at that moment that Cowboy fans knew this guy would become big. Then comes last year, his first season as a starter in the league. Only his second year in the league and first year with an offseason to prepare. How does he respond? 100+ tackles and 4 INTs (BTW he is only the second LB to intercept both Brady and Manning in their careers). That INT total ties David Harris for most by a LB in the league last year. And it wasn't like his interceptions were meaningless. He made those plays during crucial moments of the game. His PDs leave him tied for 10th with all LBs in the league.

So lets look back at your criteria again.

1. Youth - Lee is 26 and already in his second year starting at ILB for the Cowboys. So I can safely say check he has youth.

2. Potential, Production, Risk. - Potential? Lee has shown that he can be a Top 5 ILB in the league. Mike Mayock even believed he should have gone in the first round but because of his injury his injury in 08 he fell to the second. He has the brains and determination to achieve this goal. He isn't someone that the team will have to worry about off the field. There are no outside problems to limit him from his potential. Lee has shown that the one knock on him (pass defense) has been improved. He is the leader of the team on defense. Rob has compared him to Teddy Bruschi, an all time great with the Patriots. The risk that Lee won't get to hit potential is very little. With a great defensive coach in Ryan there to guide him in his young years, Lee can easily reach Top 5 ILB.

3. Maturity - Lee is a professional in every sense of the word. BloggingtheBoys interviewed the Penn State Blog leaders on SBNation and the first thing they mentioned was that Lee is an outstanding individual that would never be caught outside in a courtroom or jail. He is a guy that leads by example and always puts his best foot forward.

4. Position - Sean Lee plays ILB and is the signal caller for the Cowboys on defense. He is the heart of the team. His position is second to DWares in terms of importance on defense. So I'd say yes Sean Lee plays a prime position. One that is definitely in the Top 6 at least.

5. Marketability - A young rising stud in the middle of the Cowboys defense. I'd say yes he has some major marketability. Someone that has showed incredible toughness and strength, playing the last half of the season with healing dislocated wrist that he opted to not have surgery on. Sean Lee's jerseys are selling like hotcakes along with just about every other Dallas star player.

So after carefully looking over your criteria. Where did Lee miss? He seems to hit every one of those categories very well and looks poised to be the cornerstone of the Cowboys defense for years.


It's all really in that PPR section, though this was a great post and probably shows one of the first of several oversights on this list. Still doesn't crack my top 50, but I will definitely move him into that Honorable Mention section. Upon further review and considering some of the other guys in that HM/Not Quite HM section that I haven't posted yet, he definitely creeps up toward the top of that list. I probably am underestimating his ability in zone concepts in pass defense, though he still has some way to go in M2M and blitz.

For the record, there are a number of HMs and potentially some even in the Not Quite HMs that merit some consideration for the top 50 (just not by my opinion).

There is also quite a bit of a dropoff after the 25-30 range IMO on my list. From there on, there's a list of close to 35-40 players that are all in very similar range and dependent largely upon scheme and preference from person to person. Definitely want to stress this part.

TheVillain112 wrote:
I can definitely see Sean Lee as the new face of Gerber...


Legitimately laughed at this when I read it at work today. Will be difficult to beat this post in this thread. Laughing

MaddHatter wrote:
How do you leave Sean Lee off


Unbelievable - you're better than that RS


Last year it was Doug Free. We all hit and miss. Wink

Fired-Up wrote:
Since the youth category is an admittingly arbitrary cut-off wouldn't it make sense to raise the age of QB's to under 30. A 29 year old QB is not the same as a 29 year RB. One is smack in the prime of his career and should have another 4-5 more years of dominace. The other is winding down.


It would, but I don't want to just make the cutoff different for 2 position then just the same. It basically adds another variable to the list and no matter how hard you try there are still gonna be some exceptions you want to include above the cutoff and others you don't want to include below the cutoff though some people think you should based on guesstimating longevity. It's just an element that I prefer not debating (not to mention it adds more work for me and this is enough work as it is). <28 is a cutoff where age becomes such a minimal concern outside of older running backs, which is widely recognized as a position of short shelf life and unlikely to draw much debate. The very first year I did this sort of project (the year prior to my first top 50 cornerstone article), I kind of did it this way where I didn't have much of an arbitrary cutoff and I made too many inclusions of older players. Decided from then on to keep it young.

superfly3176 wrote:
Would like to know how Sean Lee isn't a proven impact player yet? He had 105 tackle last season to go along with 2 fumble recovers and 4 interceptions. Please tell me how he's a notch below.


I'm not using the word loosely. Impact I mean put a stamp on the game AND make their teammates better. Sean Lee is a VERY GOOD player, but just not a proven "impact" player. That's not a requirement for a top 50 franchise cornerstone, but I will try to be cautious when I use the term "impact player".
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MightyMouse07


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RS, I just had to defend our man crush in the Cowboys forum. Lee has the makings of a potential superstar from everything we have seen. We have high expectations for him. I hope he can show you that he can be an impact player this year and make the list next year. Very Happy
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