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The Hot Seat - Norv Turner's 2012 Thread
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: The Hot Seat - Norv Turner's 2012 Thread Reply with quote

The Hot Seat - Norv Turner's 2012 Thread



Welcome to Norv Turner's offical thread for the 2012 season. In this thread, we will talk about how he is doing as coach, why he calls the plays when he calls them, his style of play and anything else of interest regarding our beloved coach Norv Turner.

Some history first. Norv started his coaching career as a assistant for Oregon and USC, then became an assistant with the Los Angeles Rams. He then had his most successful job when he was offensive coordinator for the Dallas Cowboys. The offense was ranked dead last in almost every category in 1990, the year before he joined, but quickly rose to a top 10 offense in 1991 and then won the Superbowl in 1992 and 1993.
He then became head coach of the Redskins where he had varying degrees of success. After 7 years with the Redskins he was fired.
He then went back to being a coordinator, then back to a coach, then back toa coordinator, and then he was hired as ther Chargers head coach in 2007.

After leading the Chargers to the AFC championship game in his first year, he has struggled to find that success again. He has had 3 playoff appearances, with 3 victories. But after the miserable loss to the Jets in the playoffs following the 2009 season the Chargers have had back to back seasons where they faield to reach the playoffs. Now in 2012 he has a last chance to bring the Chargers back into the postseason.



His offensive style is one that has been with San Diego since the 70's and is what the Charegrs have been most known for. The Air Coryell offense started with Fouts, Winslow and Joiner and is now revolving around Phillip Rivers, Antonio Gates, and a set of talented wide receivers. The old NFL always had two runningbacks, a tightend, and two wide receivers that ran short to medium routes. Coryell, and now Turner, beleive in using multiple sets, with wide receivers lining up in different formations, and using the entire field. Deep passes, passing down the middle, quick short routes, and half back screens all are options on any given play with Air Coryell.

Coryell was very successful because he also utilized a weapon that had never been seen before - an athletic tightend who could run as fast as a wide receiver- Kellen Winslow. Norv Turner also utilizes the tightend posistion greatly, but has added the 'F-Back' into the mix. The F-back is not a traditional fullback, but a hybrid that can block, run, and go out for passes.



Why Norv's offense has been successful in San Diego:
-Philip Rivers has a quick release that can make all short-medium routes an option. He also has a good deep ball so the entire field is open to be attacked.
- Antonio Gates fits the mold of an athletic tightend who can make defensive coordinators pull their hair out. Ladarius Greene also fits this mold and I am excited about his future if the Coryell offense stays.
- Brandon Manumaleuna, Mike Tolbert, and Jacob Hester have all been capable 'F-backs' that have given the defense more to think about. This year McClain and Hester will be in this role, although McMichael might also see time in it.

Why Norv's offense has struggled:
-The Offensive line has to be able to hold up in the passing game. With all the deep routes and complex patterns the wide receivers run, time is needed. The offensive line has been hit by injuries, poor performances, and inconsistancy.
- Lack of ground game. In 2007, Tomlinson led the NFL in rushing. That is no coincidence that Norv's best playoff run came during that year. Since 2007, Tomlinson steeply declined, Sproles shown he shines as a utility back, but not an every down guy, Tolbert was undependable, and Ryan Mathews has too many peaks and valleys. The core of Air Coryell is the entire field can be targeted, and that includes power running between the tackles and running off-tackle. The Chargers hope Mathews can put it together for a full 16 games so this offense can fulfill it's potential.

Misc:
Norv is 33rd all time with 107 wins. He has 113 losses. As Chargers head coach he is 49-31.
Emmit Smith led the NFL in rushing every year udner Norv, and Tomlinson led it in Norv's first year.
Norv Turners offense has been in the top 5 scoring in every season as Chargers head coach. As head coach in Washington and Oakland it was in the top 5 once out of 9 seasons.
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my first question is, if Dean is reasonable, what is the minimum Norv must accomplish this year to keep his job?

- Make a Superbowl?
- Win AFCW and a playoff game?
- Win wildcard and a playoff game?
- Win AFCW and one/done?
- Make playoffs?
- Finish 10-6 and miss playoffs?

I think if the Chargers win at least one playoff game after a good regular season he will be brought back. If they go 11-5 and get a wildcard and then win a game on the road I don't see him being fired. If he wins the AFCW and wins a playoff game I don't see him leaving. Any elss than that and I'm sure Dean will make the right call, since his only other option is extending Norv.
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charger-man


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea for a thread because Norv is perhaps the most polarizing Chargers figure.

I agree that, in isolation, a playoff win or a good regular season isn't enough to for Norv to keep his job. He needs to win the division make a run because he has lost the fans and will be under scrutiny week in and week out.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that making the playoffs may well not be enough, depending on in what fashion the exit happens. If we only make the playoffs and are decisively beaten (I'm not even saying blown out, but rather are just outplayed in many facets of the game) in our first game out, Norv shouldn't keep his job. At some point, even amid Dean's delusions, he may just have to accept that Norv's a "Dungy in Tampa" type scenario where he's just not the guy that going to get over the hump (note: This is in NO WAY an endorsement that Jon Gruden is such a guy).

Winning the division decisively (i.e. by a 2+ game margin), particularly if securing 1st round bye, and being at least competitive in the divisional round (even if it does result in a loss) should merit one more year (since I think that's getting close to how long he has left on the extension he was given anyway), but I'd really set that as a minimum. If we back into the playoffs as a WC berth, we need at least one if not preferably two playoff wins to secure true safety for Norv.
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kramxel


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that anything less than a playoff win will be a no-go. At least that's how I'd look at it if I was Dean.

Ideal would be winning the division, and then a playoff win.... but maybe a WC win will be enough for Dean to keep him.
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Frankie2Gunz


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an outsider looking in I think you guys are in for a tough season. The AFC west has improved greatly since last season and the Chargers have gotten worse. I predict you guys will finish 3rd or 4th in the division and Turner will lose his job.

I love Rivers and think he is a top 7 QB. That being said he is not given much to work with and is shouldering all of the pressure. Meachum was a terrible signing and think at best he is a number 2 WR. The rest of your WR are average at best. Losing VJax will be a bigger loss than you guys think. The thing that kills me the most about Turner is how he has hyped up Mathews, who has a ton of injury concerns and has backed him up with a washed up Ronnie Brown. That alone should get him fired.

The success of your O relies heavily on Mathews and Turner is putting his job on the line by banking on this guy. When he is on the field he is very good but can he stay on the field or is he made of glass?
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankie2Gunz wrote:
As an outsider looking in I think you guys are in for a tough season. The AFC west has improved greatly since last season and the Chargers have gotten worse. I predict you guys will finish 3rd or 4th in the division and Turner will lose his job.

I love Rivers and think he is a top 7 QB. That being said he is not given much to work with and is shouldering all of the pressure. Meachum was a terrible signing and think at best he is a number 2 WR. The rest of your WR are average at best. Losing VJax will be a bigger loss than you guys think. The thing that kills me the most about Turner is how he has hyped up Mathews, who has a ton of injury concerns and has backed him up with a washed up Ronnie Brown. That alone should get him fired.

The success of your O relies heavily on Mathews and Turner is putting his job on the line by banking on this guy. When he is on the field he is very good but can he stay on the field or is he made of glass?

Meachem was not brought in to be the guy who replicates Jackson's production. No one wide receiver will put up that production, but ideally Gates, Floyd, Meachem, Royal, and Brown will all contribute to make up for his loss. Will it work? Your guess is as good as mine.

AJ Smith is the man to blame for the running back situation. Although to be fair Tolbert surprised everyone by accepting less money to go to a team with DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart. To me that doesn't make any sense. If Brown, Brinkley, and Battle can just be average I think the team should be ok until Mathews returns. Missing a game or 2 for a year isn't out of the ordinary for a running back, so hopefully this injury is the worst he suffers.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankie2Gunz wrote:
As an outsider looking in I think you guys are in for a tough season. The AFC west has improved greatly since last season and the Chargers have gotten worse. I predict you guys will finish 3rd or 4th in the division and Turner will lose his job.


I'll address this part first, and make every attempt possible to look at this from a very objective point of view. When you say the rest of the division has "greatly improved" you're basing this upon every bit of tinkering or "if" situation for the other three teams turning out more positive than negative for them, but that those changes made by the Chargers are somehow less likely to do the same?

Everyone in the division has a ton of "if's" upon which their 2012 season is success is dependent. IF Peyton Manning is able to perform for a 16 game season at a level comparable to that of 2010 and prior Peyton Manning. IF the Broncos' lack of a single better than average defensive tackle won't adversely affect their run defense and therefore their TOP that it limits Peyton from having as much impact anyway. IF all the injury-returns from the Chiefs (one of whom has a rather lengthy list of previous injuries dating back to college in Moeaki) don't suffer any adverse effects in their return only one season later. IF the division hasn't at least improved enough (or the schedule become tougher) that Matt Cassel only "being asked not to lose games" will be enough for the Chiefs to produce a winning record. IF Darren McFadden can actually go a full 16-game season without missing notable time for injury. IF the simple addition by subtraction of Dennis Allen for Chuck Bresnahan is enough to turn around the Raiders' defense in a single season's time (and if that's the case then I don't see how the exact same addition by subtraction of the Chargers replacing the equally worthless Greg Manusky with John Pagano shouldn't also be as relevant).

Quote:
I love Rivers and think he is a top 7 QB. That being said he is not given much to work with and is shouldering all of the pressure. Meachum was a terrible signing and think at best he is a number 2 WR. The rest of your WR are average at best. Losing VJax will be a bigger loss than you guys think. The thing that kills me the most about Turner is how he has hyped up Mathews, who has a ton of injury concerns and has backed him up with a washed up Ronnie Brown. That alone should get him fired.

You're overrating Vincent Jackson purely off his production. While I hate when fans make this argument, you have to have actually watched a full season of Chargers games (nearly impossible unless you're going to the trouble of finding streams these days given the number of times we've been blacked out) to appreciate how inconsistent Jackson was - even when Rivers was on his "A"game, which he certainly wasn't last season. A healthy Antonio Gates - which reports not just from the media but from skilled guys trying to defend him in practice, as well as the eye test from Thursday's game will confirm to be the case - in the system that we run, greatly minimizes the loss of Jackson. TBH, if either of Eddie Royal (this one I'll believe when I see, though reports have been very positive to this point and he was quite effective when Denver had a QB capable of using his talents in Cuddles) or Vincent Brown can be 1/2 to 2/3 as consistent catching the ball as Wes Welker, the only reason our offense can't be a poor man's version of New England's from last season would be our OL's ability to buy Rivers enough time for routes to develop.
You can't exactly blame Norv for Ronnie Brown being the only reserve behind Mathews for several reasons. For one, Brown's not. McClain is still going to see carries, even when Mathews is healthy, and this is a player who averaged 3.9 YPC, totaling over 900 yards, 10 TD's, and a Pro Bowl selection in 2008 when he was the feature back for the Ravens. He left the Ravens not because he was ineffective but because he lost significant carries to Ray Rice and Willis McGahee. As an injury-fill, it's not like Le'Ron's much of a slouch. Secondly, Norv isn't the one signing the players. Does he obviously have an opinion which goes to some level to affect whether AJ Smith signs the player? Yes. But again, Norv's opinion will largely be based upon what he sees on the field during a player's visit and workout and less on what his game-tape while being played in a very minimal role behind a workhorse back in Philadelphia was.

Quote:
The success of your O relies heavily on Mathews and Turner is putting his job on the line by banking on this guy. When he is on the field he is very good but can he stay on the field or is he made of glass?

It does? Last I checked, Rivers had a career season (and had a legitimate case for OPOY) in the season when our run game was among the worst in the league. Our offense isn't reliant on our running game, particularly in a league which has trended more nad more of late towards being pass-happy/pass-first.

A big IF for us is whether Mathews (and Gates... and Floyd...) can stay healthy long enough to make large contributions for us. But our IF's are no greater or more significant than those of the rest of the division. Certainly not enough to validate the statement you made in your first paragraph that the rest of the division has so greatly improved beyond the level of the Chargers such that our team is destined to not be competitive enough to stand a chance in the division.
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MrDrew


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the excuse of the slow start may do both Norv and AJ in. If they start 1-5, the fans are going to be calling for their heads, and I think we'll actually get them this time.
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sanitizer


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank AntonioGates for that response. I didn't even know where to start with that guy.

The division has greatly improved but the Chargers haven't? And we can all make that assumption during the 1st week of pre-season?

I know it was just the first pre-season game, but the joy I got last night from watching the Raiders get shut out was so amazing.
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sanitizer wrote:
Thank AntonioGates for that response. I didn't even know where to start with that guy.

The division has greatly improved but the Chargers haven't? And we can all make that assumption during the 1st week of pre-season?

I know it was just the first pre-season game, but the joy I got last night from watching the Raiders get shut out was so amazing.

I think LBC's response was better than mine Razz

And yeah, if the Chargers have no running game behind Mathews, I can't imagine what the Raiders have behind McFadden.
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Charged UP


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't think this is a super bowl or bust team. A return to the playoffs will ensure that Turner is back next year. I can even be a one and done playoff appearance and I think he will be safe. Let's face it, if he didn't get fired last year, why would he get fired this year if this teams final results improve?
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright I intend to post in this thread throughout the season, good or bad. So let me take a look at what Norv has done well so far this season.

Gotten everyone involved. 11 players have caught a pass or had a rushing attempt in the first 2 games. With no Ryan Mathews, Norv has done well utilizing the backfield he has with Brown, a pass catcher and blocker, Brinkley, a guy who can do a little of it all, and Battle, a pounder who excels in short yardage and 4th quarter carries. And losing Vincent Jackson has not slowed the production of the air offense yet. The 3 new receivers brought in this year, Meacham, Royal, and Rosario have combined for 10 catches, 119 yards and 3 TDs in 2 games.

Using the entire field. I explained in my first post that Norv's staple is attacking the entire field on any given play. We have seen him use the entire cast shown above all around the field. Gates has caught deep balls on the sideline as well as screens. Floyd has been a monster over the middle and targeted on the outside. Meacham has been running deep but also gotten looks at wide out screens.

Overall the gameplan and play calling have both been spot on the first 2 weeks. Rivers and drops hurt the redzone the first week and yesterday the only problems were some awkward snaps/backfield issues.

If anyone purchased NFL22, please feel free to post any play analysis you find interesting. Offensively or defensively doesn't matter. I don't know if we can get a good read on Pagano's defense yet, but it has been promising so far.
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charger-man


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually don't think Norv has handled the RB situation well at all. Ronnie Brown should not be in the NFL, flat out. He has lost it and it's clear Battle/Brinkley should have been our primary backups to Ryan Mathews. Heck, even McClain looks much better as a runner. I think if Battle got the nod week 1, we could have put away the game much earlier. Norv totally mishandled that situation.

Despite that he has had a solid start to the season. The team looks good and Rivers is playing smartly (maybe Norv is in his ear about that).
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I agree that Brown is the weak link of the backfield. But he is the best at blocking and still offers something in the screen game. In that regard he is an asset since this team will be passing the ball a lot.
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