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ak06max

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 1202
Location: Chicago

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject:

Barely wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

Barely wrote:

Everyone's going to be shocked when Emery picks our REAL need...an offensive lineman.

Too many people bought into that "oh, yeah, we love our O line" smokescreen.

Our line was doing fine before Jay went down. It is young and getting more experience and playing time together will only help. We do need to add another guy but it is very unlikely to occur in the first round. Not impossible if someone drops but that is not too likely.

If "fine" means "led the league in pressures allowed at that time," then yes, the line was doing all kinds of fine.

This forum reminds me of when Devin Hester was our #1 receiver and everyone said that our WR corps was awesome and just needed one more season with Jay to break out. Three years later...

Lots of heads in the sand here.

How about our dear Mr. Webb? Two years a starting tackle, two years in the bottom five for quarterback disruptions allowed.

It's like we've learned nothing since 2007 when our ancient line all fell off the face of the earth.

I completely agree. This line is a HUGE ? mark going into this year. Webb even if he does make a stride upward he is still at best average. Marshall can only run so fast. Everyone thinks that Marshall is the answer to everything but in reality Marshall cant do much with 2 seconds until Cutler is smashed into the turf. Unless if Tice is planning dime n nickle plays all year we are is some serious trouble. . Carimi and Spencer may be our only solid player on this line.

51to54

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1529

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject:

ak06max wrote:

Barely wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

Barely wrote:

Everyone's going to be shocked when Emery picks our REAL need...an offensive lineman.

Too many people bought into that "oh, yeah, we love our O line" smokescreen.

Agree it's a question mark, but one with a much higher floor than just two seasons ago when it was possibly the worst in the last 10 years of the NFL. And it was playing decent, not good, but decent ball last year for much of the time.

Marshall isn't going to fix everything on the Oline, but he gives Cutler a goto WR who can make defenses pay and pay big if they pressure and they don't get to Cutler in time. Carmini is coming back. Heck, even Williams is coming back for what that's worth. Webb will only be entering his 17th game as our OLT. I'm assuming we'll pick up a 3rd rounder or maybe a 4th to bolster the Oline depth if not find an outright starter. And don't forget, Martz and his obsolete kill the QB system is gone and that is no small upgrade.

Superman(DH23)

Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 16524
Location: Abdi on the sick sig

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:40 am Post subject:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

That's why there is a lot of talk that Kalil may be falling down the board right now.

Kalil will go 3rd overall...as he should...the only reason he won't go 3rd overall is if the Vikings FO are complete idiots.

Sounds more and more like Kalil won't be 3rd overall, I'm hearing maybe #10 to Buffalo, but in that scenario, he might be passed over for Reiff b/c Buffalo likes Reiff's polished skillset. Speculation will all end tomorrow.

Could be a smokescreen but it sounds like the Vikes never loved the idea of taking Kalil and have now decided not to do it.
_________________

OneBadCat wrote:

Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season.

Madmike90

Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18608
Location: Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:47 am Post subject:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

That's why there is a lot of talk that Kalil may be falling down the board right now.

Kalil will go 3rd overall...as he should...the only reason he won't go 3rd overall is if the Vikings FO are complete idiots.

As I said...if they don't take him 3rd overall in a division with JP, Mathews and Avril they are idiots...Ponder has been an injury concern since coming out of college...he won't last long without a quality LT...Kalil is a quality LT.

topwop1

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 4521

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:51 am Post subject:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

That's why there is a lot of talk that Kalil may be falling down the board right now.

Kalil will go 3rd overall...as he should...the only reason he won't go 3rd overall is if the Vikings FO are complete idiots.

I'm kind of hoping they don't take Kalil because he looks like he's going to be very good for a long time and that offense stands next to no chance with Charlie Johnson as their LT. Guys like Blackmon and Claiborne just don't scare me enough so I'd be thrilled if the Vikes passed on Kalil for either of those two.
_________________

Madmike90

Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18608
Location: Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:54 am Post subject:

topwop1 wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

That's why there is a lot of talk that Kalil may be falling down the board right now.

Kalil will go 3rd overall...as he should...the only reason he won't go 3rd overall is if the Vikings FO are complete idiots.

I'm kind of hoping they don't take Kalil because he looks like he's going to be very good for a long time and that offense stands next to no chance with Charlie Johnson as their LT. Guys like Blackmon and Claiborne don't scare me soI'd be thrilled if the Vikes passed on Kalil for either of those two.

Agreed.

Superman(DH23)

Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 16524
Location: Abdi on the sick sig

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

That's why there is a lot of talk that Kalil may be falling down the board right now.

Kalil will go 3rd overall...as he should...the only reason he won't go 3rd overall is if the Vikings FO are complete idiots.

That 11 on the wonderlic would scare the crap out of me if I was in an NFL front office, the great OTs in the NFL have always been in the mid30s or higher.

And you bring up the DE/OLBs, it's also a division w/ CJ, Jennings and now Brandon Marshall. CB is a definite need as well.
_________________

OneBadCat wrote:

Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season.

Madmike90

Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18608
Location: Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

Madmike90 wrote:

Superman(DH23) wrote:

That's why there is a lot of talk that Kalil may be falling down the board right now.

Kalil will go 3rd overall...as he should...the only reason he won't go 3rd overall is if the Vikings FO are complete idiots.

The wonderlic test tests one thing…general intelligence…nothing in the test shows how well a guy understands football concept so as much as it would have been great for him to get a high score it’s not overly important that he didn’t and his football smarts have been proven time and time again on the field…

Also Jammal Brown who was one of the top LTs in the NFL before he blow out his ACL scored a 12 on the Wonderlic...

I agree CB is a need but I would value a LT over a CB.

GRRLacher

Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 20640
Location: Maryland

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject:

Marino scored a 14 on it back in the day...Wonderlic Shmunderlic. Those tests really serve no purpose, IMO anyways, in the world of football.

As for CB or LT...I see both as needs, but neither as huge needs. I watched a lot of Cutler and Bears offense video this offseason and wow did we have a lot of 7 step drops...I don't see Tice using 7 step drops very often if at all. That's going to be huge for the OL...back to quicker patterns, not having to wait for things to develop down the field on every pass play. With that in mind, Carimi coming back healthy (and he was possibly our best OL at the time he went down last year) along with Williams being healthy again is going to make our OL better already. I don't see us needing to address it too early in the draft. Kalil and DeCastro will be gone, leaving Reiff from Iowa as the next best OL on the board...I don't want us grabbing (stretching) for him at 19. If we were 25 or so and he was there, maybe. But I think there will be a lot better talent on the board to choose from than him.
_________________

ChicagoAl

Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7096

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject:

ak06max wrote:

Barely wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

Barely wrote:

Everyone's going to be shocked when Emery picks our REAL need...an offensive lineman.

Too many people bought into that "oh, yeah, we love our O line" smokescreen.

Who is not concerned about the line? We are counting on two injured players returning so we don't know about that. We have inexperienced and raw starters at LT and RT and RG. Actually every player on that line is playing a position he has only played a year when you look at it.

Nor is anyone so little concerned they don't believe the line can improve or who wouldn't snap up a top-flight draft pick should they fall.

BTW you have no idea that Carimi is any more "solid" than Webb but for some reason are willing to have faith in him. The short time he played he was little, if any, better at RT than Webb.

How did we get to 7-3 last year if that line was so bad? And are you not aware that the last games before Cutler was injured he was hardly touched. It isn't Marshall who is going to save Cutler's butt, it is an offense which throws the ball to the TE and which allows Jay to audible. Those two things will reduce his hits in and of themselves. Another year of experience will also make our linemen better as well.

ak06max

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 1202
Location: Chicago

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject:

ChicagoAl wrote:

ak06max wrote:

Barely wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

Barely wrote:

Everyone's going to be shocked when Emery picks our REAL need...an offensive lineman.

Too many people bought into that "oh, yeah, we love our O line" smokescreen.

Well I would hope 1st round talent is better than 7th. Thats just a hunch.

Since Webb was rated at the bottom of all NFL LT in the league in penalties and sacks given up you really cant beat that

We got 7-3 last year from Jay he makes this line look better than it actually is. When Jay gets injured due to Webbs mental mistakes and inability to be a solid starter you really think Campbell is going to bring us to the promise land. Cutler can only take so much punishment till his body cant handle it. .

You make Webb look like the next Long just needs development. Thats a dream that will never come true.

Barely

Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Posts: 275
Location: Peoria, IL

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:12 am Post subject:

ChicagoAl wrote:

No, fine means that the line was improving significantly and, at the time of his injury, was keeping the opponents off of Jay.

See, just saying this doesn't make it true. I'm still wondering how "leading the league in QB pressures allowed" = keeping guys off of the QB. They allowed the pressure. The reason that pressure did not result in sacks is Cutler's ability to get the hell away from the big, bad men who want to hurt him. That's like claiming that a guy who completes 20% of his passes is an accurate passer. Sorry, but the numbers don't lie. We were 32nd out of 32 at the time Jay went down. That's what we call "the worst."

Quote:

Fine also means getting more experienced as a line playing together which is very important.

Quote:

Even if we draft a lineman it will be some time (months) before the line improves.

How do you figure? Several of last year's drafted linemen contributed right away. Why should we assume that ours won't?

Quote:

You saw what happened with Carini, he was only holding his own while learning the position.

Yes, he was holding his own. Bears linemen haven't managed to do much of that in the past 5 years, unfortunately. In his two games, Carimi actually had a halfway decent ratio of snaps to pressures allowed. His run blocking was below average, but not horribly so. I'll take that trade-off every time. Keeping the QB safe is the number one priority right now. Carimi was our second-best graded lineman last year, as sad as that is.

Quote:

Our most promising WR in that set can barely walk.

Johnny Knox is not a good wide receiver. He has poor hands, refuses to fight for balls, and is a very lazy route runner. He's fast enough to run past corners. That's about it.

Quote:

Changing positions yearly is a very good way to develop young linemen don'cha think? Has anymore opposed finding someone better? I don't think so. It isn't as easy as you think however and JW will still be there in 2013. I would be happy to see the Bears draft Allen or Schwartz to provide competition even if I am a big fan of Webb.

I can see how you'd be a fan. I'm kind of a fan, too. Not everyone can be that bad. He went from being the worst right tackle in the league to being the second worst left tackle in the league. On the right side, he led the NFL in penalties and sacks allowed. On the left side, he led the league in penalties and sacks allowed. Not everyone can fail that badly. If Webb were just bad, I'd have some hope. Unfortunately, he's not just bad...he's on that tier where other teams' practice squad guys have been outperforming him when they get called up...and I'm not just saying that; it's actually been happening.

Quote:

So far only Webb and Louise fit that catagory, one of the most important BTW. Perhaps you hadn't noticed that everyone of the First Round linemen we have drafted the last decade immediately got hurt and missed part of their rookie year.

Actually...and I want to make it clear that I am not hoping for it to happen...we'd have been better off if Webb HAD gotten hurt. Tice has such a boner for him that he won't get off of the field as long as he's healthy. I'm willing to give Louis a mulligan for last year. He never should have had to play tackle; he's never played it before; he's never even been considered a prospect for it.

Quote:

And our center was part of that ancient line and somehow is playing at his highest level yet. But it is great when you have all the answers.

Your perception is not reality. Garza's pressures allowed and the yards per carry on his blocks were better than 2009 and 2010...but worse than 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.

So, to wrap things up...

1) leading the league in QB pressures allowed is not the same thing as doing a good job of protecting the QB. That's just ridiculous.

2)
2011 O line = 31st in run blocking, 31st in pass blocking, 25th in penalties
2012 O line = so far, the same guys.

3) If you want to pick a guy to stand behind, Webb is a poor choice. Edwin Williams was actually the best lineman last year. He graded out as league-average.

4) I'm just going to stop discussing this, I guess. You're reading Bears propaganda and buying it hook, line, and sinker. When you look at things through the eyes of a homer, the team can do no wrong, even when the numbers flat-out tell you different. This stuff is right up there with "Al Afalava is really good" and "Devin Hester is totally worth #1 receiver money!"

5) So far, the indications are that Phil Emery is not stupid. He's got you guys buying his line of crap, but I bet he doesn't allow Webb to start on Jay Cutler's blind side come week one, no matter what Tice wants.

Mudderfudder77

Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 1306

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:32 am Post subject:

Barely wrote:

5) So far, the indications are that Phil Emery is not stupid. He's got you guys buying his line of crap, but I bet he doesn't allow Webb to start on Jay Cutler's blind side come week one, no matter what Tice wants.

Mike Tice is staking his professional reputation to Webb's backside - there is more than just lip-service going on.

Before Cutlers injury the line had improved throughout the season and was on pace to be 16th in sacks allowed. Not great, but also not as bad as the media portrays it. Martz and Caleb Hanie made sure that the line finished with the most sacks allowed.

Greg Cosell, who watches more pro tape than anyone, has watched every snap of Webb's career and recently said in his mock draft that Webb had the talent to be a good LT and that he improved through out the course of the year.

Now remove Martz and his 7 step drops, add in more runs and play - action, add in a TE and RB to help block and you have plenty of cover for a young and growing OL.

This line is going to remain virtually unchanged to start the season (save for the return of Camiri) and I expect it to do fine.

Besides - none of the prospects likely available at 19 are top LT candidates, most grade out as RT's at the next level - even a player like Reiff is listed on some teams boards as a G because of his alligator arms.

I just can't see any circumstance, save for Kalil being there, that the Bears draft OL in the first round. Maybe if Konz fell to 50 I could see the Bears picking him up, otherwise I don't see the Bears even looking OL until the 3rd/4th rounds at the earliest.
_________________

2013 Draft - Go TE or go home. Yes, TE, even after signing Bennett. Vance McDonald is your huckleberry.

ChicagoAl

Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7096

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject:

ak06max wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

ak06max wrote:

Barely wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

Barely wrote:

Everyone's going to be shocked when Emery picks our REAL need...an offensive lineman.

Too many people bought into that "oh, yeah, we love our O line" smokescreen.

If I did that my rhetorical skills are even better than I had hoped. I'm running for office.

In actuality what I have said is that Webb has all the physical tools to be a dominating LT. He is getting good coaching now probably for the first time in his playing career and is responding well even if you don't believe it. It is not clear that he has all the mental tools required but I have not seen any indication that he doesn't.

You seem to ignore the fact that Martz's system killed QBs even with a All Pro and HoF left tackle. It doesn't only occur with a kid playing the position for the first time in the pros. You have no appreciation of what he has been asked to do and seem to be living in a dream that we are going to plug in another rookie who will be much better. It won't happen. They didn't even expose Carimi to such a situation.

ChicagoAl

Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7096

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject:

Barely wrote:

ChicagoAl wrote:

No, fine means that the line was improving significantly and, at the time of his injury, was keeping the opponents off of Jay.

Quote:

Fine also means getting more experienced as a line playing together which is very important.

Don't believe every piece of propaganda you read. Every year linemen change teams and every year some of those new linemen play at a high level from the first snap. If you take 5 linemen who know the playbook and who are both physically and technically sound, you will have an above-average line from day one. That is not propaganda merely common sense and what comes from watching the game. The better teams have lines which are together for significant time. Those wherein the players are constantly changing and it is continual chaos are the ones which suck year in year out. This is not even questionable.

Quote:

Even if we draft a lineman it will be some time (months) before the line improves.

How do you figure? Several of last year's drafted linemen contributed right away. Why should we assume that ours won't? We will be happy to have any one we drafted in the first round PLAY at all. It is easy to figure that they won't since they HAVEN'T.

Quote:

You saw what happened with Carini, he was only holding his own while learning the position.

Quote:

Our most promising WR in that set can barely walk.

Johnny Knox is not a good wide receiver. He has poor hands, refuses to fight for balls, and is a very lazy route runner. He's fast enough to run past corners. That's about it. Talk about swallowing the propaganda you should gag on that amount. He is sooo bad that he led the team in just about every statistic for a receiver and yards per catch was # one or two in the league. Give me three more such terrible WRs and SB here we come.

Quote:

And our center was part of that ancient line and somehow is playing at his highest level yet. But it is great when you have all the answers.

Your perception is not reality. Garza's pressures allowed and the yards per carry on his blocks were better than 2009 and 2010...but worse than 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. Garza's play earned him a spot in the Pro Bowl and a contract extension is sufficient proof of what I say much more convincing that impressions of sports writers as to whom or what is responsible for plays' results.

So, to wrap things up...

1) leading the league in QB pressures allowed is not the same thing as doing a good job of protecting the QB. That's just ridiculous. That might be the reason I did not say it.

2)
2011 O line = 31st in run blocking, 31st in pass blocking, 25th in penalties
2012 O line = so far, the same guys. Seems as though you have a different definition of run blocking than applies to the world since the Bears were tied for ninth in yards and yards per carry. Nor were they last in anything. They were 27th in total ranking and 28th in QB hits. Much of this was the Martz's system. While our ranking was not good you refuse to admit that it was better than the year before and showing every sign of improving before Jay went down.

3) If you want to pick a guy to stand behind, Webb is a poor choice. Edwin Williams was actually the best lineman last year. He graded out as league-average. Yeah, I suppose we will see EW starting this year won't we?

4) I'm just going to stop discussing this, I guess. You're reading Bears propaganda and buying it hook, line, and sinker. When you look at things through the eyes of a homer, the team can do no wrong, even when the numbers flat-out tell you different. Apparently you just have these labels you randomly stick on people who disagree with you since anyone around here can point out where I am anything but a "homer". This stuff is right up there with "Al Afalava is really good" and "Devin Hester is totally worth #1 receiver money!" None of that has anything to do with me or anything I have ACTUALLY said. BTW Hester is not being paid anything CLOSE to the top WRs.

5) So far, the indications are that Phil Emery is not stupid. I can see he really went overboard signing OLinemen in FA didn't he? He's got you guys buying his line of crap, but I bet he doesn't allow Webb to start on Jay Cutler's blind side come week one, no matter what Tice wants.

Phil Emery does not dictate anything about who plays or where. And he will be the first to tell you. No decent coach in the whole league would put up with such intervention for one second. Nor does Emery know more about offensive line talent than Tice.

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