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jch1911
Joined: 21 Mar 2009
Posts: 2359
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
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 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Apollo Stallion wrote: |
3b) Mike Martin, DT - Michigan
Big motor and big Senior Bowl get Phillips attention inside, just like Reed did.
4a) Brandon Mosely, OT - Auburn
Former TE, 2nd fastest T to Kalil, SEC player, book it |
Not sure about the rest of it... but dead on with Martin (who looks like the second coming of Jay Ratliff for our D) and Mosely (ignored him before, but that former TE pedigree is too much for Koobs to ignore)
Not to knock the trade, but Cleveland does also have pick 22... not sure if they would also try to get #26 |
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Wolf6151
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 2560
Location: Pearland, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Apollo Stallion wrote: | Since I was bullied into it, how about this. Spent 20 whole minutes on it.
Texans trade from #26 to #37 Browns for 2012 2nd, 2012 3rd and 2013 2nd (they use pick for Weeden to pair with Blackmon)
2a) Mohamed Sanu - WR - Rutgers
100% convinced WR will be our first pick and since I think Wright goes top 20 and I hate Hill, here's the guy. Man, I'm really starting to get afraid Hill's the guy.
2b) Ronnell Lewis - OLB - OU
Absolute fit for new attitude Texans D, mean, nasty, high motor LB who likes to eat QBs. Injury concerns could have him drop.
3a) Harrison Smith - SS - Notre Dame
Guy is all over the board and has gone from underrated to overrated with Mayock's man crush on all things Notre Dame (remember him placing Jimmy Clausen to the Browns at #7 in 2010?). Probably more wish than reality, but I'd love to see us move Quin back to #2 and shift to nickle vs. SS to nickle. Smith is better equipped to handle the big TE's.
3b) Mike Martin, DT - Michigan
Big motor and big Senior Bowl get Phillips attention inside, just like Reed did.
4a) Brandon Mosely, OT - Auburn
Former TE, 2nd fastest T to Kalil, SEC player, book it
4b) Ryan Broyles, WR - Oklahoma
Finally we get a real slot receiver.
5) Cyrus Gray - RB - Texas A&M
One cut guy who is a perfect 3rd back with ability to return kickoffs and a solid pass catcher.
6) Corey Harkey, TE - UCLA
What we tried to do with Hill pick. Total blocking TE who we can teach to catch like we did with Dreessen.
7) Patrick Butrym - DE - Wisconsin
Texans do goofy sentimental things with 7th rounders. Why not give Watt's counterpart a crack at Bulman's #4 DE job. I can also see Wisconsin FB Bradie Ewing getting a shot but he's a bit of a UDFA type. |
Bullied?  Now that didn't hurt to bad did it? |
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amazingandre
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 13377
Location: Elkhorn, WI
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Apollo Stallion wrote: | | amazingandre wrote: | Newst (maybe LAST) mock
Round 1. Devon Still, a big bodied RELENTLESS nose tackle. Perfect size for our one gap system and a nightmare for guards. Will fit in NICELY between Watt and Smith.
Round 2. Nick Toon, a perfect fit for our pro style system. Good size, ok speed, great hands. He is a willing and EXCELLENT blocker. Comes from a system in Madison that mirrors our pass attack. He will fit in nicely and will push for the number 2 role IMMEDIATELY.
Round 3. Brandon Mosley, a good sized tackle who will push for the starting RT tackle job, but will lose out due to being a rookie. Look for him to put pressure on Butler if he starts to struggle though. I like this guy, but may be gone prior to our selection here.....
Round 4. Marvin Jones, I love this kid, but no one else seems to, look slike he may fall to this far, which would be GREAT for us if he does, but my heart is telling me we better grab him in round 2 if we want him.
Round 4. Jamell Fleming, I have seen him anywhere from the 2nd round to round 5. IF he lasts this long, we better grab him. A great number 2 corner with nice size and speed. He had academic problems a few times, so not the smartest crayon in the box, but good football player. I really think he will be gone, but maybe not.... |
Going to continue to disagree on Toon in the 2nd. I'm on board with you on Marvin Jones (not in the 2nd), with my only problem being that I think he's practically identical to Toon aside from needing to bulk up a bit so there is no way you draft BOTH of them. Personally, I'd take Marvin McNutt over both of them if I'm looking for this #2 model you guys want and I'm pretty sure he'll still be around in the 4th. Explain to me again how McNutt gets 1,315 yards with 12 tds in the same conference as Toon despite having a crappy QB, has virtually the same measurables yet Toon is routinely being placed 2 rounds ahead.
Hell, Ryan Broyles was more productive than any of these fools and I'd grab him in the 5th and stick him in the slot on 3rd downs and keep Kevin Walter over Toon. There are some other serious bargains sitting around in the late rounds like Greg Childs. I'd even roll the dice on my (former) boy Fuller in the 5th as for all his warts, he at least had 1 great season on his resume unlike Toon and for all the excuses being made for Jeffery, Fuller still put up 70 catches for 828 yards and 6 yards last year. Heck, Fullers dad played in the NFL too, you know. |
Sorry, but the Senior Bowl turned me off of Mcnutt. A big stage for him to show his talents and he had the dropsies, im sure you will say one week should not drop a guy off your board, but IMO if he crumbles under that pressure, than how can we assume he will be different than Jacoby once on this team and have the dropsies once he is expected to step up in absence of Andre?
And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players.....
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Apollo Stallion
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 5094
Location: Battle Red State
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| amazingandre wrote: | | Apollo Stallion wrote: | | amazingandre wrote: | Newst (maybe LAST) mock
Round 1. Devon Still, a big bodied RELENTLESS nose tackle. Perfect size for our one gap system and a nightmare for guards. Will fit in NICELY between Watt and Smith.
Round 2. Nick Toon, a perfect fit for our pro style system. Good size, ok speed, great hands. He is a willing and EXCELLENT blocker. Comes from a system in Madison that mirrors our pass attack. He will fit in nicely and will push for the number 2 role IMMEDIATELY.
Round 3. Brandon Mosley, a good sized tackle who will push for the starting RT tackle job, but will lose out due to being a rookie. Look for him to put pressure on Butler if he starts to struggle though. I like this guy, but may be gone prior to our selection here.....
Round 4. Marvin Jones, I love this kid, but no one else seems to, look slike he may fall to this far, which would be GREAT for us if he does, but my heart is telling me we better grab him in round 2 if we want him.
Round 4. Jamell Fleming, I have seen him anywhere from the 2nd round to round 5. IF he lasts this long, we better grab him. A great number 2 corner with nice size and speed. He had academic problems a few times, so not the smartest crayon in the box, but good football player. I really think he will be gone, but maybe not.... |
Going to continue to disagree on Toon in the 2nd. I'm on board with you on Marvin Jones (not in the 2nd), with my only problem being that I think he's practically identical to Toon aside from needing to bulk up a bit so there is no way you draft BOTH of them. Personally, I'd take Marvin McNutt over both of them if I'm looking for this #2 model you guys want and I'm pretty sure he'll still be around in the 4th. Explain to me again how McNutt gets 1,315 yards with 12 tds in the same conference as Toon despite having a crappy QB, has virtually the same measurables yet Toon is routinely being placed 2 rounds ahead.
Hell, Ryan Broyles was more productive than any of these fools and I'd grab him in the 5th and stick him in the slot on 3rd downs and keep Kevin Walter over Toon. There are some other serious bargains sitting around in the late rounds like Greg Childs. I'd even roll the dice on my (former) boy Fuller in the 5th as for all his warts, he at least had 1 great season on his resume unlike Toon and for all the excuses being made for Jeffery, Fuller still put up 70 catches for 828 yards and 6 yards last year. Heck, Fullers dad played in the NFL too, you know. |
Sorry, but the Senior Bowl turned me off of Mcnutt. A big stage for him to show his talents and he had the dropsies, im sure you will say one week should not drop a guy off your board, but IMO if he crumbles under that pressure, than how can we assume he will be different than Jacoby once on this team and have the dropsies once he is expected to step up in absence of Andre?
And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players..... |
Never produced? Broyles is the ALL-TIME FBS reception leader with 349 catches ALL-TIME FBS LEADER with 4,586 yards and #3 ALL-TIME with 45 TDs. Is this Spinal Tap? How do you produce more than #1 ALL-TIME? All of that is without being in a fluky UH type offense. His Junior and Senior years he had only 6 games where he didn't get 100 yards, Toon has 4 100 yard games where he did. Yes, the ACL needs to be checked out thoroughly but let's not treat an ACL as a career ender as about 25% of RBs and WR's have had one at some point. Would you cut Kenny Britt because he tore his ACL last year? The injury gets us a 2nd round talent in the 4th or 5th.
All we have cleared up is that there is ZERO requirement for height in our system and if you would take the Jacoby/Walter blinders off for a second you would see that we have drafted and signed multiple sub 6 footers at WR and so did the Broncos and Redskins under Shanny. If you don't think the Texans need a reliable 3rd down target in the slot, you just aren't paying attention. In some respects a shorter receiver is preferred in these situations as Matt gets to keep the ball low inside with the receiver camped just beyond the marker instead of targeting the stone handed tipped pass machine in Jacoby.
You may be right on McNutt, but I'll take the balance of the tape in real games vs. a fabricated all star game with foreign QBs, coaches, schemes. I'm not saying McNutt is a 2nd rounder, I'm saying the difference between Toon and about 5 guys just like him dictates that the value will be in the 3rd-4th round vs. reaching in the 2nd. I'd bet dollars to donuts that a guy like Quick who at least presents an upside goes in the 2nd while the possession guys like Toon all slip.
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Jacobys Homey
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 7591
Location: BU
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players.....
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Lol at you calling Broyles less talented.
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EliteTexan80
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 37196
Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacobys Homey wrote: | | Quote: | And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players.....
_________________ |
Lol at you calling Broyles less talented. |
What constitutes "talent" when comparing Nick Toon and Ryan Broyles? If you're going to LOL at it, least back it up. 
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Jacobys Homey
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 7591
Location: BU
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | | Quote: | And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players.....
_________________ |
Lol at you calling Broyles less talented. |
What constitutes "talent" when comparing Nick Toon and Ryan Broyles? If you're going to LOL at it, least back it up. |
There's no point. We already have figured out that Ax2 closes his ears and screams la-la when somebody talks about a sub 6 foot WR.
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EliteTexan80
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 37196
Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacobys Homey wrote: | | EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | | Quote: | And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players.....
_________________ |
Lol at you calling Broyles less talented. |
What constitutes "talent" when comparing Nick Toon and Ryan Broyles? If you're going to LOL at it, least back it up. |
There's no point. We already have figured out that Ax2 closes his ears and screams la-la when somebody talks about a sub 6 foot WR. |
Humor me.
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Jacobys Homey
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 7591
Location: BU
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | | EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | | Quote: | And really, Broyles, another 5 ' 10 wide out? Thought we cleared that up already.....
And you would pick a guy who never produced like he led you to believe he could and already had bad ankle and acl injuries over toon? Stop reaching for less talented players.....
_________________ |
Lol at you calling Broyles less talented. |
What constitutes "talent" when comparing Nick Toon and Ryan Broyles? If you're going to LOL at it, least back it up. |
There's no point. We already have figured out that Ax2 closes his ears and screams la-la when somebody talks about a sub 6 foot WR. |
Humor me. |
Ok.
Let's see, besides the fact that he was one of the most productive WR's of all-time in college, let's just talk about his talent.
He's quick. He's not uber fast, but in and out of cuts there are few who do it better. This is why he was almost unanimously considered the best route runner in the country. Great YAC ability. Phenomenal hands. Knows how to separate from defenders. Sets up his moves extremely well, EXTREMELY well. If I needed one guy to convert a third and medium from this draft, I'd take him over anyone. He has the knack for the big situation to make the big play. It was noticeable as I watched the Baylor/OU game. OU had nobody to go to in big situations; Jones sorely missed his security blanket.
And as said, he actually used all these abilities to become the most prolific receiver in the nation.
I really hope that the response to this is more than "Well we need somebody to replace Andre in 5 years. Sub 6 foot. lattterrr"
Toon shrinked in big moments. His performance towards the end of the season was pretty much terrible. I know Wisky loves to run run run and run some more, but Toon shows nothing to put him over Broyles (pre-injury) other than being taller.
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EliteTexan80
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacobys Homey wrote: | Ok.
Let's see, besides the fact that he was one of the most productive WR's of all-time in college, let's just talk about his talent. |
Good thing we're leaving this from the discussion, because this doesn't equal out to be anything special. Broyles IS the most prolific WR in CFB history, but look at the rest of the list:
1. Ryan Broyles 349
2. Tyron Carrier 320
3. Taylor Stubblefield 316
4a. Josh Davis 306
4b. Eric Page 306
4c. Jordan White 306
7. Antonio Brown 305
8. Taurean Henderson 303
9. Kendall Wright 302
10. Freddie Barnes 298
Don't exactly see an All Pro list at WR with the top 10. I'd argue that the most successful name in the top 30 All Time is Wes Welker, who comes in at #30. Production at the college level is important, but it's not the see-all, be-all. Calvin Johnson is arguably the best WR in the NFL, he comes in tied at 167. Larry Fitzgerald checks in at 237. Andre Johnson doesn't even crack the top 250.
| Quote: | | He's quick. He's not uber fast, but in and out of cuts there are few who do it better. This is why he was almost unanimously considered the best route runner in the country. |
Source? This is a pretty tall statement right here. I agree that Broyles has these skills, but unanimously considered the best route runner in the country? You can head out to the West Coast and see people make that claim for Robert Woods out of USC. East coast, you'd probably have a lot of folks claiming that Mohamed Sanu is the best route runner in the country.
I'm not saying NO, I'm just saying I need to see more than one person say this.
| Quote: | | Great YAC ability. Phenomenal hands. Knows how to separate from defenders. Sets up his moves extremely well, EXTREMELY well. If I needed one guy to convert a third and medium from this draft, I'd take him over anyone. He has the knack for the big situation to make the big play. It was noticeable as I watched the Baylor/OU game. OU had nobody to go to in big situations; Jones sorely missed his security blanket. |
Thanks for the update. Now, can you make the same kind of report on Nick Toon? You included a blurb about big game situations, but - in the same vein as you did with Broyles - can you do the same thing with Toon? Strengths, weaknesses? He's got to have SOMETHING outside of his daddy's name to get the press (it's not as if his daddy was some superstar when he did play...) This isn't an exercise to give you a pulpit to find flaws with Toon, it's a review to see if you have enough on Toon to dictate whether or not you know enough about Toon to say that Broyles is more talented.
Also...the injury. A BIG part of it all that has to be considered.
For someone who has a knee injury, the strengths you listed - quickness in and out of cuts, running accurate routes, slippery YAC ability - those take a HUGE hit when there is scar tissue and consistent soreness in the knee. Look at Peter Warrick's career in the NFL as an example. He was arguably the BEST WR in terms of the skillsets that you mentioned, highly regarded as a prospect coming out of college, was starting to let those skills show at the pro level, before he blew out his ACL. After that, he didn't have those skills to lean on anymore; His knees held him back, and he had no other skills or attributes to lean on afterwards, and he faded into oblivion after it.
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texans_uk
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 25112
Location: Kempes on the sig
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | Ok.
Let's see, besides the fact that he was one of the most productive WR's of all-time in college, let's just talk about his talent. |
Good thing we're leaving this from the discussion, because this doesn't equal out to be anything special. Broyles IS the most prolific WR in CFB history, but look at the rest of the list:
1. Ryan Broyles 349
2. Tyron Carrier 320
3. Taylor Stubblefield 316
4a. Josh Davis 306
4b. Eric Page 306
4c. Jordan White 306
7. Antonio Brown 305
8. Taurean Henderson 303
9. Kendall Wright 302
10. Freddie Barnes 298
Don't exactly see an All Pro list at WR with the top 10. I'd argue that the most successful name in the top 30 All Time is Wes Welker, who comes in at #30. Production at the college level is important, but it's not the see-all, be-all. Calvin Johnson is arguably the best WR in the NFL, he comes in tied at 167. Larry Fitzgerald checks in at 237. Andre Johnson doesn't even crack the top 250. |
To be fair Johnson played in a goofy G-Tech offense and declared as a Junior, Larry Fitzgerald declared as a sophmore, Andre Johnson declared as a Junior but barely featured as a Freshman so it was essentially only his second season.
Ryan Broyles has been OU primary receiver for 3 of his 4 years and obviously played out his college career.
Broyles caught A LOT more TDs than the other receivers near the top of this list. He also did it playing in the Big-12 not the C-USA or MAC.
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Jacobys Homey
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 7591
Location: BU
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Good thing we're leaving this from the discussion, because this doesn't equal out to be anything special. Broyles IS the most prolific WR in CFB history, but look at the rest of the list: |
What does this have to do with... anything. The majority of those guys played in super weak conferences and didn't have near the TD's that Broyles did. All the statistics do is back up Broyles' phenomenal skill set.
| Quote: | Source? This is a pretty tall statement right here. I agree that Broyles has these skills, but unanimously considered the best route runner in the country? You can head out to the West Coast and see people make that claim for Robert Woods out of USC. East coast, you'd probably have a lot of folks claiming that Mohamed Sanu is the best route runner in the country.
I'm not saying NO, I'm just saying I need to see more than one person say this. |
I don't know how to source numerous anecdotes from TV analysts.
| Quote: | Thanks for the update. Now, can you make the same kind of report on Nick Toon? You included a blurb about big game situations, but - in the same vein as you did with Broyles - can you do the same thing with Toon? Strengths, weaknesses? He's got to have SOMETHING outside of his daddy's name to get the press (it's not as if his daddy was some superstar when he did play...) This isn't an exercise to give you a pulpit to find flaws with Toon, it's a review to see if you have enough on Toon to dictate whether or not you know enough about Toon to say that Broyles is more talented.
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Nope, that's pretty much it. Toon got big press because he was a big time recruit who got a lot of publicity because of his dad. He never produced like he was supposed to.
| Quote: | For someone who has a knee injury, the strengths you listed - quickness in and out of cuts, running accurate routes, slippery YAC ability - those take a HUGE hit when there is scar tissue and consistent soreness in the knee. Look at Peter Warrick's career in the NFL as an example. He was arguably the BEST WR in terms of the skillsets that you mentioned, highly regarded as a prospect coming out of college, was starting to let those skills show at the pro level, before he blew out his ACL. After that, he didn't have those skills to lean on anymore; His knees held him back, and he had no other skills or attributes to lean on afterwards, and he faded into oblivion after it.
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Yeah, it's a risk, that's why you take him in the 3rd or 4th and not the second. Broyles' already ran in the 4.5's at his pro day 5 months after ACL surgery, so the treatment is obviously going superb.
Give me post ACL surgery Broyles in the 3rd or 4th over Toon in the 2nd or 3rd for me all day everyday.
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EliteTexan80
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jacobys Homey wrote: | | Quote: | | Good thing we're leaving this from the discussion, because this doesn't equal out to be anything special. Broyles IS the most prolific WR in CFB history, but look at the rest of the list: |
What does this have to do with... anything. The majority of those guys played in super weak conferences and didn't have near the TD's that Broyles did. All the statistics do is back up Broyles' phenomenal skill set. |
Fair enough.
ET: Computer!
Computer: Yes, ET.
ET: Query, WR on all time reception list from "major" conference.
Computer: As you wish, ET.
(My inner Tony Stark needed to get itched...)
1. Broyles, OU (Big 12), 349
2. Taylor Stubblefield, (Big Ten) 316
3. Taureen Henderson (Big 12) 303
4. Kendall Wright (Big 12) 302
5. Rashaun Woods (Big 12) 293
6. Dorien Bryant (Big Ten) 292
7. Michael Floyd (DI Independent) 271
8. Wes Welker (Big 12) 259
9. Derek Hagan (Pac-10) 258
10. Justin Blackmon (Big 12) 252
11. Jordan Shipley (Big 12) 248
12. Roy Williams (Big 12) 241
13. Detron Lewis (Big 12) 238
14. Reggie Williams (Pac-10) 238
15. Earl Bennett (SEC) 236
16. Jeff Fuller (Big 12) 233
17. Aaron Kelly (ACC) 232
18. Michael Crabtree (Big 12) 231
19. Eric Decker (Big Ten) 227
20. Kerry Meier (Big 12) 226
So, I hate taken out the "small" schools, left you with a top 20 list from big named conferences. A few things stand out:
1. There is STILL a lack of big time NFL WRs for the most part, as Welker is still the most accomplished of these names. (Jury is still out on the likes of Wright, Floyd, Blackmon, Fuller...and to a lesser extent, Eric Decker, Michael Crabtree and Jordan Shipley). To compensate, I went with a top 20 list. I can add anothet 10-15 names, and we'd still get the same results.
ET: Computer!
Computer: Yes, ET.
ET: Stand by, query of next 15 WRs from major conferences.
Computer: Standing by.
(Ok, I'm done...I think. Dunno, been watching Iron Man since 9 AM).
2. A LOT of Big 12 guys. Either this is a pass happy conference - which is understandable, a lot of Tech and OKST guys - or kenney was right, and the secondaries in the Big 12 are bad. Could be both, I'll let you be the judge.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Source? This is a pretty tall statement right here. I agree that Broyles has these skills, but unanimously considered the best route runner in the country? You can head out to the West Coast and see people make that claim for Robert Woods out of USC. East coast, you'd probably have a lot of folks claiming that Mohamed Sanu is the best route runner in the country.
I'm not saying NO, I'm just saying I need to see more than one person say this. |
I don't know how to source numerous anecdotes from TV analysts. |
And again, I'm sure TV analysts who have a predominantly west coast audience are singing the praises of Robert Woods as the best [insert skills here] in the nation. TV analysts who have a predominantly east coast audience are singing about Sanu as the best [insert skills here] in the nation.
At the end of the day, these analysts are beheld to play to the ratings in their region. They gain a bit of an advantage when so-and-so is the best at such-and-such...and they don't bother comparing other offering out there.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Thanks for the update. Now, can you make the same kind of report on Nick Toon? You included a blurb about big game situations, but - in the same vein as you did with Broyles - can you do the same thing with Toon? Strengths, weaknesses? He's got to have SOMETHING outside of his daddy's name to get the press (it's not as if his daddy was some superstar when he did play...) This isn't an exercise to give you a pulpit to find flaws with Toon, it's a review to see if you have enough on Toon to dictate whether or not you know enough about Toon to say that Broyles is more talented.
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Nope, that's pretty much it. Toon got big press because he was a big time recruit who got a lot of publicity because of his dad. He never produced like he was supposed to. |
171 receptions over four years. Not too bad for a run first team, which Wisconsin has been since the Ron Dayne days.
Luckily for you, I've done homework on Toon, based on watching him play:
| I wrote: | | I saw a lot of Wisconsin this year (seems like they had a lot of games on ESPN Thursday nights) and Toon always stood out to me. He was smooth in his routes, got in and out of his cuts quickly, created separation with his deceptiveness in his routes, caught the ball with his hands, used proper arm extension to reach for the ball, didn't let the ball get into his chest on "hot" incoming passes, and had a gear that he could use to get extra yards with when he had room to run. That is what got me thinking this guy, not the numbers taken as a whole. From a technical/execution perspective, the guy has very little flaws in his game. Yeah, he's not a burner and not someone who can get the jump ball every time...but a solid receiver with not much more room to grow, but is a pretty polished product in his own right. |
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=13824749#13824749
You can stick with your stance, if you'd like. I'm sure that Ax2 - a Wisconsin native - would also share the same stance as I have. Heck, he may of heard someone say that Toon is the best route runner in the nation over there in Wisconsin.
| Quote: | | Quote: | For someone who has a knee injury, the strengths you listed - quickness in and out of cuts, running accurate routes, slippery YAC ability - those take a HUGE hit when there is scar tissue and consistent soreness in the knee. Look at Peter Warrick's career in the NFL as an example. He was arguably the BEST WR in terms of the skillsets that you mentioned, highly regarded as a prospect coming out of college, was starting to let those skills show at the pro level, before he blew out his ACL. After that, he didn't have those skills to lean on anymore; His knees held him back, and he had no other skills or attributes to lean on afterwards, and he faded into oblivion after it.
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Yeah, it's a risk, that's why you take him in the 3rd or 4th and not the second. Broyles' already ran in the 4.5's at his pro day 5 months after ACL surgery, so the treatment is obviously going superb.
Give me post ACL surgery Broyles in the 3rd or 4th over Toon in the 2nd or 3rd for me all day everyday. |
Ok, a little inside information on knees - it isn't the straight line speed that gets negatively affected following any sort of knee procedure. You can ask me (3 knee surgeries and counting) to run a straight line, and I can do it, no problem. The tricky part comes in stopping and changing direction - otherwise known as cutting. THAT is where the strain and chance of reinjury comes into play, when you ask someone to cut excessively.
The ACL is a ligament that regulates the shin bone and the thigh bone from getting too out of place from one another. When you make a cut, your hips carry your thigh bone into the new direction, and the ACL (and PCL, a common "twin" tear in many ACL injuries) is what makes sure your shin bone doesn't continue in that original direction while the rest of the body. Seeing that running in a straight line is a static activity with no change of direction, running a 4.5 isn't too much of a tall task for someone who is trained as a potential NFL athlete is trained. However, asking him to change directions? That is an entirely different request, one that will be limited.
What were his times in cone drills, L shuttle drills? THAT is the true indicator as to how he has progressed from his injury, given the skillset that you state he has.
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Texansfan713
Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 23423
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| texans_uk wrote: | | EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | Ok.
Let's see, besides the fact that he was one of the most productive WR's of all-time in college, let's just talk about his talent. |
Good thing we're leaving this from the discussion, because this doesn't equal out to be anything special. Broyles IS the most prolific WR in CFB history, but look at the rest of the list:
1. Ryan Broyles 349
2. Tyron Carrier 320
3. Taylor Stubblefield 316
4a. Josh Davis 306
4b. Eric Page 306
4c. Jordan White 306
7. Antonio Brown 305
8. Taurean Henderson 303
9. Kendall Wright 302
10. Freddie Barnes 298
Don't exactly see an All Pro list at WR with the top 10. I'd argue that the most successful name in the top 30 All Time is Wes Welker, who comes in at #30. Production at the college level is important, but it's not the see-all, be-all. Calvin Johnson is arguably the best WR in the NFL, he comes in tied at 167. Larry Fitzgerald checks in at 237. Andre Johnson doesn't even crack the top 250. |
To be fair Johnson played in a goofy G-Tech offense and declared as a Junior, Larry Fitzgerald declared as a sophmore, Andre Johnson declared as a Junior but barely featured as a Freshman so it was essentially only his second season.
Ryan Broyles has been OU primary receiver for 3 of his 4 years and obviously played out his college career.
Broyles caught A LOT more TDs than the other receivers near the top of this list. He also did it playing in the Big-12 not the C-USA or MAC. |
Johnson wasnt playing in the option offense when he was at GT. He was coached by Chan Gailey, and had horrible Reggie Ball at QB. When he left Paul Johnson came to GT and they ran the option offense.
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Apollo Stallion
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | Jacobys Homey wrote: | | Quote: | | Good thing we're leaving this from the discussion, because this doesn't equal out to be anything special. Broyles IS the most prolific WR in CFB history, but look at the rest of the list: |
What does this have to do with... anything. The majority of those guys played in super weak conferences and didn't have near the TD's that Broyles did. All the statistics do is back up Broyles' phenomenal skill set. |
Fair enough.
ET: Computer!
Computer: Yes, ET.
ET: Query, WR on all time reception list from "major" conference.
Computer: As you wish, ET.
(My inner Tony Stark needed to get itched...)
1. Broyles, OU (Big 12), 349
2. Taylor Stubblefield, (Big Ten) 316
3. Taureen Henderson (Big 12) 303
4. Kendall Wright (Big 12) 302
5. Rashaun Woods (Big 12) 293
6. Dorien Bryant (Big Ten) 292
7. Michael Floyd (DI Independent) 271
8. Wes Welker (Big 12) 259
9. Derek Hagan (Pac-10) 258
10. Justin Blackmon (Big 12) 252
11. Jordan Shipley (Big 12) 248
12. Roy Williams (Big 12) 241
13. Detron Lewis (Big 12) 238
14. Reggie Williams (Pac-10) 238
15. Earl Bennett (SEC) 236
16. Jeff Fuller (Big 12) 233
17. Aaron Kelly (ACC) 232
18. Michael Crabtree (Big 12) 231
19. Eric Decker (Big Ten) 227
20. Kerry Meier (Big 12) 226
So, I hate taken out the "small" schools, left you with a top 20 list from big named conferences. A few things stand out:
1. There is STILL a lack of big time NFL WRs for the most part, as Welker is still the most accomplished of these names. (Jury is still out on the likes of Wright, Floyd, Blackmon, Fuller...and to a lesser extent, Eric Decker, Michael Crabtree and Jordan Shipley). To compensate, I went with a top 20 list. I can add anothet 10-15 names, and we'd still get the same results.
ET: Computer!
Computer: Yes, ET.
ET: Stand by, query of next 15 WRs from major conferences.
Computer: Standing by.
(Ok, I'm done...I think. Dunno, been watching Iron Man since 9 AM).
2. A LOT of Big 12 guys. Either this is a pass happy conference - which is understandable, a lot of Tech and OKST guys - or kenney was right, and the secondaries in the Big 12 are bad. Could be both, I'll let you be the judge.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Source? This is a pretty tall statement right here. I agree that Broyles has these skills, but unanimously considered the best route runner in the country? You can head out to the West Coast and see people make that claim for Robert Woods out of USC. East coast, you'd probably have a lot of folks claiming that Mohamed Sanu is the best route runner in the country.
I'm not saying NO, I'm just saying I need to see more than one person say this. |
I don't know how to source numerous anecdotes from TV analysts. |
And again, I'm sure TV analysts who have a predominantly west coast audience are singing the praises of Robert Woods as the best [insert skills here] in the nation. TV analysts who have a predominantly east coast audience are singing about Sanu as the best [insert skills here] in the nation.
At the end of the day, these analysts are beheld to play to the ratings in their region. They gain a bit of an advantage when so-and-so is the best at such-and-such...and they don't bother comparing other offering out there.
| Quote: | | Quote: | Thanks for the update. Now, can you make the same kind of report on Nick Toon? You included a blurb about big game situations, but - in the same vein as you did with Broyles - can you do the same thing with Toon? Strengths, weaknesses? He's got to have SOMETHING outside of his daddy's name to get the press (it's not as if his daddy was some superstar when he did play...) This isn't an exercise to give you a pulpit to find flaws with Toon, it's a review to see if you have enough on Toon to dictate whether or not you know enough about Toon to say that Broyles is more talented.
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Nope, that's pretty much it. Toon got big press because he was a big time recruit who got a lot of publicity because of his dad. He never produced like he was supposed to. |
171 receptions over four years. Not too bad for a run first team, which Wisconsin has been since the Ron Dayne days.
Luckily for you, I've done homework on Toon, based on watching him play:
| I wrote: | | I saw a lot of Wisconsin this year (seems like they had a lot of games on ESPN Thursday nights) and Toon always stood out to me. He was smooth in his routes, got in and out of his cuts quickly, created separation with his deceptiveness in his routes, caught the ball with his hands, used proper arm extension to reach for the ball, didn't let the ball get into his chest on "hot" incoming passes, and had a gear that he could use to get extra yards with when he had room to run. That is what got me thinking this guy, not the numbers taken as a whole. From a technical/execution perspective, the guy has very little flaws in his game. Yeah, he's not a burner and not someone who can get the jump ball every time...but a solid receiver with not much more room to grow, but is a pretty polished product in his own right. |
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=13824749#13824749
You can stick with your stance, if you'd like. I'm sure that Ax2 - a Wisconsin native - would also share the same stance as I have. Heck, he may of heard someone say that Toon is the best route runner in the nation over there in Wisconsin.
| Quote: | | Quote: | For someone who has a knee injury, the strengths you listed - quickness in and out of cuts, running accurate routes, slippery YAC ability - those take a HUGE hit when there is scar tissue and consistent soreness in the knee. Look at Peter Warrick's career in the NFL as an example. He was arguably the BEST WR in terms of the skillsets that you mentioned, highly regarded as a prospect coming out of college, was starting to let those skills show at the pro level, before he blew out his ACL. After that, he didn't have those skills to lean on anymore; His knees held him back, and he had no other skills or attributes to lean on afterwards, and he faded into oblivion after it.
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Yeah, it's a risk, that's why you take him in the 3rd or 4th and not the second. Broyles' already ran in the 4.5's at his pro day 5 months after ACL surgery, so the treatment is obviously going superb.
Give me post ACL surgery Broyles in the 3rd or 4th over Toon in the 2nd or 3rd for me all day everyday. |
Ok, a little inside information on knees - it isn't the straight line speed that gets negatively affected following any sort of knee procedure. You can ask me (3 knee surgeries and counting) to run a straight line, and I can do it, no problem. The tricky part comes in stopping and changing direction - otherwise known as cutting. THAT is where the strain and chance of reinjury comes into play, when you ask someone to cut excessively.
The ACL is a ligament that regulates the shin bone and the thigh bone from getting too out of place from one another. When you make a cut, your hips carry your thigh bone into the new direction, and the ACL (and PCL, a common "twin" tear in many ACL injuries) is what makes sure your shin bone doesn't continue in that original direction while the rest of the body. Seeing that running in a straight line is a static activity with no change of direction, running a 4.5 isn't too much of a tall task for someone who is trained as a potential NFL athlete is trained. However, asking him to change directions? That is an entirely different request, one that will be limited.
What were his times in cone drills, L shuttle drills? THAT is the true indicator as to how he has progressed from his injury, given the skillset that you state he has. |
That sure is a lot of effort to attempt to prove that Broyles isn't better than Toon, which is great except that I had him mocked to us at #121 (4th rounder), not the 2nd where most of you keep putting Toon. The arguments you make are already factored in as if he didn't have the ACL, he'd be a 2nd rounder, even with it many teams will consider him in the 3rd (especially after his pro day showing he's almost already recovered less than 5 months after the injury), and I had him lasting until the bottom of the 4th.
Your top 25 lists are entertaining, but you are trying to treat #1 as the same as #25 when there is a huge difference between 349 catches at OU vs. 231 for Crabtree in a fluky Tech system. You also have completely ignored the fact that Broyles is ALSO #1 all-time in yards, and #3 all-time in TDs. Regardless, you are really only proving my point further since Crabtree, Roy Williams, and Reggie Williams were top 10 overall picks and Blackmon might be, Wright & Floyd will also be in the 1st, and Shipley, Bennett, and Decker were all 3rd rounders, while I have Broyles who's numbers dwarf any of them in the 4th. Let's see a list of where 4th round WRs college #'s stack up on this list and then we have a legit comparison. First WR taken in the 4th last year was Kris Durham who had 64 catches, 1,109 yards and 4 tds his entire 4 year college career at Georgia (Broyles topped that in 8 games last year vs. 32 it took Durham.)
This is the round where we've grabbed such impact players and Garrett Graham (who's numbers were better than Toon's at Wisc - btw), Rashad Carmichael, Anthony Hill, Xavier Adibi, and Fred Bennett, so the bar is pretty stinking low and you are simply being obtuse if you think that being 5' 10 and coming off an ACL is cause to turn away a borderline 1st round value in the late 4th round. I'll also bet my underwear that he ends up going in the late 2nd or 3rd anyway and could actually go before Toon despite the injury (but that wasn't the argument here).
I think you drastically underestimate the demand for quick slot receivers that have impeccable hands and are precise route runners as they are a QBs best friend and help move the chains. Heck, Landry Jones will be a top 5 pick next year and took a very noticeable dip without Broyles, losing 2 of 4 games and having 4 of his worst 5 QBRs of the season without him (with my Baylor Bears abysmal secondary providing the lone exception).
PS - Stop giving Toon "credit" for not being the primary weapon at Wisconsin - Toon contributed a combined 5 catches in Wisc's national championship killing losses to Michigan St and Ohio State and 3 in their Big 10 Championship win. At least Brian Robiskie made big catches when they mattered, like getting Ohio St to a national championship. Perhaps, Toon is good enough to be a weapon against the likes of South Dakota or Minnesota but becomes an afterthought against teams where you want the ball in your best players hands? Stoops took the Sooners to a BCS Championship game Brolyes' freshman year with a run oriented attack that featured Chris Brown and DeMarco Murray both having 1,000 yard seasons. Broyles was good enough to become the primary weapon in that offense his sophomore year despite Bradford going down and was the unquestioned epicenter of the offense his Junior and Senior year. If Toon is on those teams, he is Joaquin Iglesias, who still produced far more than Toon but you might recall also spent a week on our Practice Squad after being a 3rd round bust for the Bears. If anything, the WR's in run based attacks should have inflated totals because they are going against single coverage all day because safeties have their noses in the backfield.
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