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vike daddy
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Rick Spielman has a busy week of viewing draft-eligible players. He plans to attend UCLA's Pro Day today, then Wednesday take in Southern California's Pro Day and get a close-up look at Matt Kalil, who could be the Vikings' next left tackle. On Friday, he is scheduled to be at Oklahoma State, where touted receiver Justin Blackmon is expected to show his stuff.
http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20106311
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ArcticNorseman
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 1430
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think the trip to OK State is a nice diversion . . . lol. Unless Blackmon runs a 4.28 35-yd dash . . . . oooops, 40-yd dash, there's no way he's in the discussion for the #3 pick, IMO. Heck, he may not be in the top 10 if he runs a 4.5+
On another note . . . maybe for another thread, did anyone else see the numbers put up by Brandon Brooks (OG) of Miami (OH)? 345 lbs, running about 5.1 and 40 reps on the bench . . . did I read that correctly?
and the guy wasn't invited to the combine? wow  |
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Purple Faithful
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 2688
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| perrynoid wrote: | What seems lost to me in this discussion is how much Kalil would improve the run-game. When you have the Ultimate Weapon at RB, you want to maximize his effectiveness. Nothing cuts down the effectiveness of an opponents pass rush like a great rushing attack.
I still think you need balance to be effective in the NFL. One of the lessons I learned from this year's SB was that NE couldn't establish a run-game, and it hurt them in the end. It allows the DL in particular to really go after your QB when they know you can't run the ball effectively. |
So, suddenly Adrian Peterson will be a running back that follows his blocks & stop going for the home -run? Kalil is a decent tackle, but I think the Viking's need & the lack of elite players at DE or LB is skewing the discussion of Kalil's value. Kalil didn't face SEC talent & had concentration lapses against his lesser competition. The WR is short & slow, the corner is a Cromartie at tackling & isn't quick (7.01 3-cone drill). None of them are worth the 3 pick, imo. Gonna be putting lipstick on a pig to take one of those 3.
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2012 Viking Fan:
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ArcticNorseman
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Guys . . . the Vikes had a running game this year (about 145 yrds a game) . . . most of it was AP, but if you go back and look at the stats, about 40 yrds a game was from the QB running for his life on broken plays.
That's not acceptable. -- 125-135 yrds a game by the RBs would be awesome, if accompanied by 250-275 yrds a game passing.
Your stud LT will be a BIG part of getting that kind of offensive balance.
PF . . . Kalil is going to be the real deal -- he's Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Joe Thomas good. Yes, he'll have to go against Julius Peppers as a rookie twice, but then again look at what Peppers did to McKinney . . . I'd take Kalil with his footwork over McKinney's reaching anyday. Give the kid baptism by fire everyday in practice and see where he winds up . . . yeah, Jared's gonna bust his a**! But, he'll be a lot better because of it come gameday. |
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Gordon Bombay
Joined: 17 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| ArcticNorseman wrote: | Guys . . . the Vikes had a running game this year (about 145 yrds a game) . . . most of it was AP, but if you go back and look at the stats, about 40 yrds a game was from the QB running for his life on broken plays.
That's not acceptable. -- 125-135 yrds a game by the RBs would be awesome, if accompanied by 250-275 yrds a game passing.
Your stud LT will be a BIG part of getting that kind of offensive balance.
PF . . . Kalil is going to be the real deal -- he's Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Joe Thomas good. Yes, he'll have to go against Julius Peppers as a rookie twice, but then again look at what Peppers did to McKinney . . . I'd take Kalil with his footwork over McKinney's reaching anyday. Give the kid baptism by fire everyday in practice and see where he winds up . . . yeah, Jared's gonna bust his a**! But, he'll be a lot better because of it come gameday. |
I'd like to think that as Kalil gets better, it will make Jared better, too.
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perrynoid
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Location: Bismarck, Norse Dakota
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Purple Faithful wrote: | | perrynoid wrote: | What seems lost to me in this discussion is how much Kalil would improve the run-game. When you have the Ultimate Weapon at RB, you want to maximize his effectiveness. Nothing cuts down the effectiveness of an opponents pass rush like a great rushing attack.
I still think you need balance to be effective in the NFL. One of the lessons I learned from this year's SB was that NE couldn't establish a run-game, and it hurt them in the end. It allows the DL in particular to really go after your QB when they know you can't run the ball effectively. |
So, suddenly Adrian Peterson will be a running back that follows his blocks & stop going for the home -run? Kalil is a decent tackle, but I think the Viking's need & the lack of elite players at DE or LB is skewing the discussion of Kalil's value. Kalil didn't face SEC talent & had concentration lapses against his lesser competition. The WR is short & slow, the corner is a Cromartie at tackling & isn't quick (7.01 3-cone drill). None of them are worth the 3 pick, imo. Gonna be putting lipstick on a pig to take one of those 3. |
Well, this is how I view AP's success as a runner. If he can get past the DL, he is so dangerous as he can out-run any LB and run over about any DB. Thus, getting him "clear" of the DL is essential in my estimation. If we had a truly dominant OL, I would expect 200+ yard games from him routinely. I have seen some of the truly great RB's play over the past 3-4 decades, and AP is special. When you have a weapon like him, you need to maximize his effectiveness.
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minnvikes22
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| perrynoid wrote: | | Purple Faithful wrote: | | perrynoid wrote: | What seems lost to me in this discussion is how much Kalil would improve the run-game. When you have the Ultimate Weapon at RB, you want to maximize his effectiveness. Nothing cuts down the effectiveness of an opponents pass rush like a great rushing attack.
I still think you need balance to be effective in the NFL. One of the lessons I learned from this year's SB was that NE couldn't establish a run-game, and it hurt them in the end. It allows the DL in particular to really go after your QB when they know you can't run the ball effectively. |
So, suddenly Adrian Peterson will be a running back that follows his blocks & stop going for the home -run? Kalil is a decent tackle, but I think the Viking's need & the lack of elite players at DE or LB is skewing the discussion of Kalil's value. Kalil didn't face SEC talent & had concentration lapses against his lesser competition. The WR is short & slow, the corner is a Cromartie at tackling & isn't quick (7.01 3-cone drill). None of them are worth the 3 pick, imo. Gonna be putting lipstick on a pig to take one of those 3. |
Well, this is how I view AP's success as a runner. If he can get past the DL, he is so dangerous as he can out-run any LB and run over about any DB. Thus, getting him "clear" of the DL is essential in my estimation. If we had a truly dominant OL, I would expect 200+ yard games from him routinely. I have seen some of the truly great RB's play over the past 3-4 decades, and AP is special. When you have a weapon like him, you need to maximize his effectiveness. |
Well, its nice to see that some else would like to see our O-line upgraded and actually understands what it would do for both the run and passing game. Lets just hope our front office see this as well... |
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Purple Faithful
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| perrynoid wrote: |
Well, this is how I view AP's success as a runner. If he can get past the DL, he is so dangerous as he can out-run any LB and run over about any DB. Thus, getting him "clear" of the DL is essential in my estimation. If we had a truly dominant OL, I would expect 200+ yard games from him routinely. I have seen some of the truly great RB's play over the past 3-4 decades, and AP is special. When you have a weapon like him, you need to maximize his effectiveness. |
Terrell Davis & Emmit Smith follow blocks; Barry Sanders & Adrian Peterson do not is kinda how I feel about it. Wasn't a drop off in yards per carry with Gerhart, but maybe there was on home runs would be my guess, but that's without checking. Guess I'm lazy today. 
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Remember when the Vikings passed on Dan Marino because we had Tommy Kramer? ahhh, good times.
2012 Viking Fan:
Draft like Jimmie Johnson=bad (2 QB's)
Draft like Jerry Jones=good (take an OT top10) |
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perrynoid
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Location: Bismarck, Norse Dakota
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Purple Faithful wrote: | | perrynoid wrote: |
Well, this is how I view AP's success as a runner. If he can get past the DL, he is so dangerous as he can out-run any LB and run over about any DB. Thus, getting him "clear" of the DL is essential in my estimation. If we had a truly dominant OL, I would expect 200+ yard games from him routinely. I have seen some of the truly great RB's play over the past 3-4 decades, and AP is special. When you have a weapon like him, you need to maximize his effectiveness. |
Terrell Davis & Emmit Smith follow blocks; Barry Sanders & Adrian Peterson do not is kinda how I feel about it. Wasn't a drop off in yards per carry with Gerhart, but maybe there was on home runs would be my guess, but that's without checking. Guess I'm lazy today. |
While I understand your concerns, the points I am trying to make are: AP's success is at least partially dependent on getting past the LOS. When DL came through unblocked or poorly blocked, he got little yardage or in many instances negative yardage. Also, in the passing game, you want your QB to be upright as often as possible, whether it is Ponder or someone else (on a side note, I hope Webb is given an honest crack at teh starting QB position: he is a special talent).
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Purple Faithful
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Bombay wrote: | | ArcticNorseman wrote: | Guys . . . the Vikes had a running game this year (about 145 yrds a game) . . . most of it was AP, but if you go back and look at the stats, about 40 yrds a game was from the QB running for his life on broken plays.
That's not acceptable. -- 125-135 yrds a game by the RBs would be awesome, if accompanied by 250-275 yrds a game passing.
Your stud LT will be a BIG part of getting that kind of offensive balance.
PF . . . Kalil is going to be the real deal -- he's Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Joe Thomas good. Yes, he'll have to go against Julius Peppers as a rookie twice, but then again look at what Peppers did to McKinney . . . I'd take Kalil with his footwork over McKinney's reaching anyday. Give the kid baptism by fire everyday in practice and see where he winds up . . . yeah, Jared's gonna bust his a**! But, he'll be a lot better because of it come gameday. |
I'd like to think that as Kalil gets better, it will make Jared better, too. |
Ugh. I think this post is gonna make me look up Gerhardt & AD's yards per attempt. We'll see as I roll along.
OK, so we have Adrian Peterson - a great running back - and we would like to add what he gets on the ground with, say, 250-275 yards through the air. Here's the problem with that, potentially. Adrian Peterson has severe limits as a blocker & receiver, harming a potential balance.
AD: 4.7 yards per carry, 7 carries for 20+ yards, 3 carries for 40+ yards, 208 total carries
Toby: 4.9 yards per carry, 3 carries for 20+ yards, 1 carry for 40+ yards, 109 attempts.
I guess Toby's better for the Vikings because he follows his blocks, is better catching & blocking. Check the vikings win/loss percentage with toby starts for another interesting bit. Hard to swallow, but that seems to be the case at first blush & I'm not feeling like digging deep today.
Arctic Norseman, your opinion on Kalil's upside is great & I hope it't true if the Vikings select him. Joe Thomas has zero super bowls, Munoz has won zero super bowls, Toni Boselli has zero super bowls. That's not to say those teams couldn't have gotten there thus far with that selection, St Louis did & all they had to do was find a HOF QB bagging groceries. So, maybe Spielman should hold impromptu work outs anywhere he goes shopping, i don't know, but a elite left tackle does not significantly influence the win/loss column according to NFL history. Maybe history shows it extends the shelf life of your QB, but I do not think I've seen enough from Ponder yet where that would be my concern. We can get by with an extra 3 sacks per year with a non-elite left tackle, I'm pretty sure, & instead take a player who might influence the win/loss column. Free agent left tackle. Bell, Gaither, Collins, or Brown, would be my choice coupled with a round 3 pick like Massey or maybe Jonathan Martin, if he falls that far.
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Remember when the Vikings passed on Dan Marino because we had Tommy Kramer? ahhh, good times.
2012 Viking Fan:
Draft like Jimmie Johnson=bad (2 QB's)
Draft like Jerry Jones=good (take an OT top10)
Last edited by Purple Faithful on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Purple Faithful
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| perrynoid wrote: | | Purple Faithful wrote: | | perrynoid wrote: |
Well, this is how I view AP's success as a runner. If he can get past the DL, he is so dangerous as he can out-run any LB and run over about any DB. Thus, getting him "clear" of the DL is essential in my estimation. If we had a truly dominant OL, I would expect 200+ yard games from him routinely. I have seen some of the truly great RB's play over the past 3-4 decades, and AP is special. When you have a weapon like him, you need to maximize his effectiveness. |
Terrell Davis & Emmit Smith follow blocks; Barry Sanders & Adrian Peterson do not is kinda how I feel about it. Wasn't a drop off in yards per carry with Gerhart, but maybe there was on home runs would be my guess, but that's without checking. Guess I'm lazy today. |
While I understand your concerns, the points I am trying to make are: AP's success is at least partially dependent on getting past the LOS. When DL came through unblocked or poorly blocked, he got little yardage or in many instances negative yardage. Also, in the passing game, you want your QB to be upright as often as possible, whether it is Ponder or someone else (on a side note, I hope Webb is given an honest crack at teh starting QB position: he is a special talent). |
Well, and your point is actually perfectly valid that if AD can get the corner & be past the first wave, he's gonna do great. Thing is, when a play is blocked a certain way & the o-line is taking their guy that way, Adrian has a habit of going to where they are not getting blocked because he sees a little something.
AD: 4.7 yards per carry, 7 carries for 20+ yards, 3 carries for 40+ yards, 208 total carries
Toby: 4.9 yards per carry, 3 carries for 20+ yards, 1 carry for 40+ yards, 109 attempts.
Look, I love Adrian. But he's that hot chick you know is eventually gonna break your heart & if you break up with her, you know all your buddies will line up. 
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Remember when the Vikings passed on Dan Marino because we had Tommy Kramer? ahhh, good times.
2012 Viking Fan:
Draft like Jimmie Johnson=bad (2 QB's)
Draft like Jerry Jones=good (take an OT top10)
Last edited by Purple Faithful on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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perrynoid
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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^Which s why I think AP needs to work on being a better receiver. If he would work harder on blitz pick-up and running pass routes, he would be more involved in the passing game. This would be a great way to get him past the DL and LB's and into the secondary. Also, in passing situations there would be (usually) one less LB to worry about.
In addition, I worry about the pounding he takes when he gets hit by big DL. Maybe I worry too much, but I want to see him healthy for many years to come.
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Purple Faithful
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| perrynoid wrote: | ^Which s why I think AP needs to work on being a better receiver. If he would work harder on blitz pick-up and running pass routes, he would be more involved in the passing game. This would be a great way to get him past the DL and LB's and into the secondary. Also, in passing situations there would be (usually) one less LB to worry about.
In addition, I worry about the pounding he takes when he gets hit by big DL. Maybe I worry too much, but I want to see him healthy for many years to come. |
1. AD is not going to fundamentally change who he is as a runner. So I do not expect he will ever be John Riggins simply following the blocks of a great offensive line & moving the chains. So, he's gonna get drilled whether Kalil is there or not, because he's gonna take the ball to the side of Kalil that Kalil is trying to push his defender.
2. AD is not going to develop hands any better than Troy Williamson did. I'm sorry, he can slightly improve, but he's not gonna be ricky young for us.
3. he can improve his blocking & blitz pick-up. That's hard work & he should be a bit embarrassed he hasn't.
So, I guess you're saying you want kalil because it may help AD, not improve our win/loss total. I guess that's as good of a reason to take Kalil as any. For me, though, in a multi-trade down scenario, I am not sure Martin from Boise State, would not be a round 3 rb that would lead to more viking wins. he follows blocks & he can catch. Obviously, I'd only want him on an extra pick from a trade down with all of our holes, but you get the idea. AD will not have the same cut he used to & he may still play like he thinks he does. So, we may be with the hot chick that's not as hot anymore, lol.
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Remember when the Vikings passed on Dan Marino because we had Tommy Kramer? ahhh, good times.
2012 Viking Fan:
Draft like Jimmie Johnson=bad (2 QB's)
Draft like Jerry Jones=good (take an OT top10) |
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Purple Faithful
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. I'm so disappointed no one decided to defend Claiborne to me after my assessment he is poor tackling in space & would therefore be bad for the Vikings. Trying to come forward in his zone to tackle the RB that just flared out in watching tape on him I kept humming a "Cake" song:
"he's going the distance
He's going for speed
He's all alone, all alone"
So, yeah, unless we're playing man & going to the Jets scheme, not a fan of his. Even on the tackles he made it seemed like he got lucky with how slow & uncomfortable he seemed coming up to make a play, getting a lot of shoelaces. I worry at the next level. Good coverage, though. 
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Remember when the Vikings passed on Dan Marino because we had Tommy Kramer? ahhh, good times.
2012 Viking Fan:
Draft like Jimmie Johnson=bad (2 QB's)
Draft like Jerry Jones=good (take an OT top10) |
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ArcticNorseman
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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PF . . . your position on the selection of a LT in the 1st vs Superbowl wins is interesting, so I looked it up. Near as I can tell, there have been 5 OTs drafted in the 1st Rd (or would've been if not for the USFL) that started on superbowl winning teams (Shell, Crusan, Odgen, Zimmerman, and Wallace). These guys started 12 of 46 games, roughly 25%.
If you go back and look at non-1st Rd QBs that have won, there's Dilfer, Johnson, Brady, Montana, Staubach, Williams, Warner, Rypien, and maybe one or two others. . . . that's about 13 or 14 SB wins. So, roughly 65% of superbowls are won by 1st Rd QBs, right? Regarding QBs, shouldn't that be the case?
Now if you want a real statistical nightmare, break that down for each position on the field. I'd wager QB and LT are the two highest percentages on record.
The position that Munoz, Boselli, Long or Thomas haven't won a Superbowl is about as fair as saying Randy Moss, Tim Brown, and Andre Reed haven't won one either --- but they sure gave their teams a better chance to get there than some 5th or 12th Rd guy. |
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