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ramsfan4lyfe8
Joined: 03 Jun 2011
Posts: 142
Location: Whitehall PA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | JLaurinaitis_55 wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | JLaurinaitis_55 wrote: | | Please will someone tell me why Blackmon isn't considered a top prospect anymore on this forum |
Why would they? You've been told before, you then argued for a bit and basically said agree to disagree. Is there really a point in starting this again in a thread that's not about Blackmon? |
Saw him mentioned earlier in the thread as apart of not being a top pick alone with Poe.. and I never really got a reason in earlier threads |
That's because no one has one. Other than saying he isn't as good (insert previous WR prospect). Which really, has no meaning whatsoever.
He's got an immense catch radius, elite concentration, great hands, extremely long arms, impressive vertical, loads of college production, staggering YAC ability, and sufficient speed. But he's not 6-4 so people don't like him much.....  |
I think all of these are exaggerations except speed, production and maybe vertical.
Staggering YAC ability? He's good after the catch but it's not staggering. It's not even what I'd consider great.
Extremely long arms? False.
Immense catch radius? False.
Great hands? I'd call them good.
What you have here is a good prospect that people are masquerading as great. He doesn't have elite qualities, he's just an all around good player. Nothing wrong with that and he's lucky to be in draft class that is so weak on top tier talent but he's not a great prospect nor is he a top 5 worthy players. |
He has the catching radius of a two car garage. Watch the sports science on him. As much as I like Justin Blackmon (which I have been wanting him in St. Louis for a while now) I really think at 2 or 4 Morris Claiborne is the better option. I see Morris Claiborne as having more "elite CB potential" than Justin Blackmon having "elite WR potential" but that's must my opinion.
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DEE RAWL
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeahhh... His catch radius is insane you cant deny him that..
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DEE RAWL wrote: | | Yeahhh... His catch radius is insane you cant deny him that.. |
I can and I will. His catch radius wouldn't even be top 10 in the NFL. It's not top 3 in this draft.
| ramsfan4lyfe8 wrote: | | He has the catching radius of a two car garage. Watch the sports science on him. As much as I like Justin Blackmon (which I have been wanting him in St. Louis for a while now) I really think at 2 or 4 Morris Claiborne is the better option. I see Morris Claiborne as having more "elite CB potential" than Justin Blackmon having "elite WR potential" but that's must my opinion. |
Sports Science exaggerated his measurables. Look at his combine measurables(arm length especially) then compare it to what Sport Science claimed.
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ctp2124
Joined: 15 Jan 2011
Posts: 1248
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| The J.R.S. wrote: | | ctp2124 wrote: | | Quote: |
When did I say that I was a better at identifying talent than the other posters?
When did I say others were "not on my level"?
Quit trolling me little man, you're not up to the task......... |
Well, you never directly said it, but it was certainly implied with:
"It's hard for the majority of people to watch a player during a game and analyze what they see."
It is greatly implied that you are saying that you are better than the majority of people at making player evaluations, whether that was your intention or not.
I am not 'trolling you' nor am I 'a little man'. If I wanted to troll you I would go around an internet message board and make judgments about others. That would be trolling. |
It's my belief that many of the contributors to footballsfuture are better than the majority of people at talent identification. It's our hobby, that's why we are here. The problem arises when uninformed outside opinions sway our judgment on a player. Which is exactly what is happening here.
The majority of people and the majority of posters are not synonymous. |
Okay, I shouldn't have made that assumption.
My philosophy on the draft is that I would rather take a risky prospect (someone like Brockers) than someone who is currently more polished but who I deem to have littler upside (someone like Blackmon). Obviously this philosophy can easily backfire but it can be successful.
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DEE RAWL
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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^^^ I can respect that but id rather go the other way.
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The J.R.S.
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 2775
Location: Next to Waldo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | JLaurinaitis_55 wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | JLaurinaitis_55 wrote: | | Please will someone tell me why Blackmon isn't considered a top prospect anymore on this forum |
Why would they? You've been told before, you then argued for a bit and basically said agree to disagree. Is there really a point in starting this again in a thread that's not about Blackmon? |
Saw him mentioned earlier in the thread as apart of not being a top pick alone with Poe.. and I never really got a reason in earlier threads |
That's because no one has one. Other than saying he isn't as good (insert previous WR prospect). Which really, has no meaning whatsoever.
He's got an immense catch radius, elite concentration, great hands, extremely long arms, impressive vertical, loads of college production, staggering YAC ability, and sufficient speed. But he's not 6-4 so people don't like him much..... |
I think all of these are exaggerations except speed, production and maybe vertical.
Staggering YAC ability? He's good after the catch but it's not staggering. It's not even what I'd consider great.
Extremely long arms? False.
Immense catch radius? False.
Great hands? I'd call them good.
What you have here is a good prospect that people are masquerading as great. He doesn't have elite qualities, he's just an all around good player. Nothing wrong with that and he's lucky to be in draft class that is so weak on top tier talent but he's not a great prospect nor is he a top 5 worthy players. |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does.
His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen.....
You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake....
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 31490
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| The J.R.S. wrote: |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does. |
Check your facts, his arms measured in at 32.5 inches at the combine. Which is around 10th best for WRs at the combine(give or take 2 spots). So yea, I can have it both ways. Blackmon has decent arm length for a WR but certainly isn't great in that category.
| Quote: | | His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen..... |
No, it's not. He's good at shrugging off tacklers, is fairly slippery and solid in space but he's certainly not elite in terms of YAC. If you want to see guys who have great YAC skills, watch T.Y. Hilton, Joe Adams and Ryan Broyles. They do some crazy things with the ball in their hands.
| Quote: | | You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake.... |
Uh no, his weakness is that he's not great at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. He's an above average athlete with good hands, good YAC skills, good body control and good ball-skills. I'm not calling Blackmon a bust, I'm just not calling him a great or elite prospect because he's not. He'll be a good Pro but he doesn't have the type of talent for me to want him in the top 5.
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The J.R.S.
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 2775
Location: Next to Waldo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does. |
Check your facts, his arms measured in at 32.5 inches at the combine. Which is around 10th best for WRs at the combine(give or take 2 spots). So yea, I can have it both ways. Blackmon has decent arm length for a WR but certainly isn't great in that category.
| Quote: | | His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen..... |
No, it's not. He's good at shrugging off tacklers, is fairly slippery and solid in space but he's certainly not elite in terms of YAC. If you want to see guys who have great YAC skills, watch T.Y. Hilton, Joe Adams and Ryan Broyles. They do some crazy things with the ball in their hands.
| Quote: | | You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake.... |
Uh no, his weakness is that he's not great at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. He's an above average athlete with good hands, good YAC skills, good body control and good ball-skills. I'm not calling Blackmon a bust, I'm just not calling him a great or elite prospect because he's not. He'll be a good Pro but he doesn't have the type of talent for me to want him in the top 5. |
I was unaware of his combine measurements, so I'll grant you that.
T.Y. Hilton and guys like that are different in terms of how they gain YAC. More pure speed and elusiveness than tackle breaking and stiff arms, so I wouldn't really compare the two.
To be honest, Blackmon reminds me alot of Crabtree when he was coming out. It's hard to tell how good Crabtree is or isn't, because WR production relies heavily on QB play.(Alex and Troy Smith?)
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The J.R.S.
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 2775
Location: Next to Waldo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ctp2124 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | ctp2124 wrote: | | Quote: |
When did I say that I was a better at identifying talent than the other posters?
When did I say others were "not on my level"?
Quit trolling me little man, you're not up to the task......... |
Well, you never directly said it, but it was certainly implied with:
"It's hard for the majority of people to watch a player during a game and analyze what they see."
It is greatly implied that you are saying that you are better than the majority of people at making player evaluations, whether that was your intention or not.
I am not 'trolling you' nor am I 'a little man'. If I wanted to troll you I would go around an internet message board and make judgments about others. That would be trolling. |
It's my belief that many of the contributors to footballsfuture are better than the majority of people at talent identification. It's our hobby, that's why we are here. The problem arises when uninformed outside opinions sway our judgment on a player. Which is exactly what is happening here.
The majority of people and the majority of posters are not synonymous. |
Okay, I shouldn't have made that assumption.
My philosophy on the draft is that I would rather take a risky prospect (someone like Brockers) than someone who is currently more polished but who I deem to have littler upside (someone like Blackmon). Obviously this philosophy can easily backfire but it can be successful. |
It's all good, I can see the mix up.
If I thought all the contributors around here were stupid, then I wouldn't waste my time here.
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 31490
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The J.R.S. wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does. |
Check your facts, his arms measured in at 32.5 inches at the combine. Which is around 10th best for WRs at the combine(give or take 2 spots). So yea, I can have it both ways. Blackmon has decent arm length for a WR but certainly isn't great in that category.
| Quote: | | His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen..... |
No, it's not. He's good at shrugging off tacklers, is fairly slippery and solid in space but he's certainly not elite in terms of YAC. If you want to see guys who have great YAC skills, watch T.Y. Hilton, Joe Adams and Ryan Broyles. They do some crazy things with the ball in their hands.
| Quote: | | You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake.... |
Uh no, his weakness is that he's not great at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. He's an above average athlete with good hands, good YAC skills, good body control and good ball-skills. I'm not calling Blackmon a bust, I'm just not calling him a great or elite prospect because he's not. He'll be a good Pro but he doesn't have the type of talent for me to want him in the top 5. |
I was unaware of his combine measurements, so I'll grant you that.
T.Y. Hilton and guys like that are different in terms of how they gain YAC. More pure speed and elusiveness than tackle breaking and stiff arms, so I wouldn't really compare the two.
To be honest, Blackmon reminds me alot of Crabtree when he was coming out. It's hard to tell how good Crabtree is or isn't, because WR production relies heavily on QB play.(Alex and Troy Smith?) |
And that's exactly why I don't see him as a great talent, I didn't think Crabtree was either. I thought Nicks and Harvin were better WRs in that draft class.
As for Hilton, yes, he does it a different way but he's better at it than Blackmon. Same thing with Broyles although he breaks more tackles than Hilton.
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The J.R.S.
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 2775
Location: Next to Waldo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does. |
Check your facts, his arms measured in at 32.5 inches at the combine. Which is around 10th best for WRs at the combine(give or take 2 spots). So yea, I can have it both ways. Blackmon has decent arm length for a WR but certainly isn't great in that category.
| Quote: | | His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen..... |
No, it's not. He's good at shrugging off tacklers, is fairly slippery and solid in space but he's certainly not elite in terms of YAC. If you want to see guys who have great YAC skills, watch T.Y. Hilton, Joe Adams and Ryan Broyles. They do some crazy things with the ball in their hands.
| Quote: | | You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake.... |
Uh no, his weakness is that he's not great at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. He's an above average athlete with good hands, good YAC skills, good body control and good ball-skills. I'm not calling Blackmon a bust, I'm just not calling him a great or elite prospect because he's not. He'll be a good Pro but he doesn't have the type of talent for me to want him in the top 5. |
I was unaware of his combine measurements, so I'll grant you that.
T.Y. Hilton and guys like that are different in terms of how they gain YAC. More pure speed and elusiveness than tackle breaking and stiff arms, so I wouldn't really compare the two.
To be honest, Blackmon reminds me alot of Crabtree when he was coming out. It's hard to tell how good Crabtree is or isn't, because WR production relies heavily on QB play.(Alex and Troy Smith?) |
And that's exactly why I don't see him as a great talent, I didn't think Crabtree was either. I thought Nicks and Harvin were better WRs in that draft class.
As for Hilton, yes, he does it a different way but he's better at it than Blackmon. Same thing with Broyles although he breaks more tackles than Hilton. |
Hakeem Nicks was a consensus late first, early second round prospect. I'm not willing, at this point, to say that Crabtree doesn't have the ability to out perform Nicks. Having Eli Manning throw to you and the other guys he has had to divert attention have made him shine much brighter.
Look at their Catch rates this past year:
2011-
Nicks-57%
Crabtree-64%
I know most of the counting statistics are largely in favor of Nicks, but I think taking team context into consideration plays a large factor. Crabtree has faced terrible QB play, constant change in Offensive coordinator, and a lack of being surrounded by WR talent.
I understand that Blackmon isn't the sexiest pick, but I generally prefer top picks that have very high floors, which he does.
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 31490
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The J.R.S. wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does. |
Check your facts, his arms measured in at 32.5 inches at the combine. Which is around 10th best for WRs at the combine(give or take 2 spots). So yea, I can have it both ways. Blackmon has decent arm length for a WR but certainly isn't great in that category.
| Quote: | | His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen..... |
No, it's not. He's good at shrugging off tacklers, is fairly slippery and solid in space but he's certainly not elite in terms of YAC. If you want to see guys who have great YAC skills, watch T.Y. Hilton, Joe Adams and Ryan Broyles. They do some crazy things with the ball in their hands.
| Quote: | | You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake.... |
Uh no, his weakness is that he's not great at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. He's an above average athlete with good hands, good YAC skills, good body control and good ball-skills. I'm not calling Blackmon a bust, I'm just not calling him a great or elite prospect because he's not. He'll be a good Pro but he doesn't have the type of talent for me to want him in the top 5. |
I was unaware of his combine measurements, so I'll grant you that.
T.Y. Hilton and guys like that are different in terms of how they gain YAC. More pure speed and elusiveness than tackle breaking and stiff arms, so I wouldn't really compare the two.
To be honest, Blackmon reminds me alot of Crabtree when he was coming out. It's hard to tell how good Crabtree is or isn't, because WR production relies heavily on QB play.(Alex and Troy Smith?) |
And that's exactly why I don't see him as a great talent, I didn't think Crabtree was either. I thought Nicks and Harvin were better WRs in that draft class.
As for Hilton, yes, he does it a different way but he's better at it than Blackmon. Same thing with Broyles although he breaks more tackles than Hilton. |
Hakeem Nicks was a consensus late first, early second round prospect. I'm not willing, at this point, to say that Crabtree doesn't have the ability to out perform Nicks. Having Eli Manning throw to you and the other guys he has had to divert attention have made him shine much brighter.
Look at their Catch rates this past year:
2011-
Nicks-57%
Crabtree-64%
I know most of the counting statistics are largely in favor of Nicks, but I think taking team context into consideration plays a large factor. Crabtree has faced terrible QB play, constant change in Offensive coordinator, and a lack of being surrounded by WR talent.
I understand that Blackmon isn't the sexiest pick, but I generally prefer top picks that have very high floors, which he does. |
Yep, Nicks was but I really liked his skill-set and what I saw in him. He's not proving me wrong. I don't see Crabtree becoming a better player.
As for catch rate, according to ESPN's numbers, Crabtree is at 63% and Nicks at 57%. Which is a difference but when you consider that Nicks averaged 15.6 yards per catch compared to Crabtree's 12.1 yards per catch, it explains the difference.
And if you want to look at their YPT which accounts for both catch rate and yards per catch, Hakeem Nicks averaged 9.0 yards per target compared to Michael Crabtree's 7.7 yards per target.
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The J.R.S.
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 2775
Location: Next to Waldo
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | The J.R.S. wrote: |
You've repeatedly quoted one of Brocker's strengths as being incredibly long arms. His are 35 inches, Blackmon's are 34 inches. You can't have it both ways Jrry. They either both have long arms or neither does. |
Check your facts, his arms measured in at 32.5 inches at the combine. Which is around 10th best for WRs at the combine(give or take 2 spots). So yea, I can have it both ways. Blackmon has decent arm length for a WR but certainly isn't great in that category.
| Quote: | | His ability to catch a short pass and gain large chunks of yardage is second to none. Probably his best overall attribute. Just go to youtube to see what I mean. Hundreds of examples to be seen..... |
No, it's not. He's good at shrugging off tacklers, is fairly slippery and solid in space but he's certainly not elite in terms of YAC. If you want to see guys who have great YAC skills, watch T.Y. Hilton, Joe Adams and Ryan Broyles. They do some crazy things with the ball in their hands.
| Quote: | | You've essentially admitted that he has no weaknesses. What else do you want from a top of the draft prospect? Bradford had more question marks coming out that Blackmon does for Pete's sake.... |
Uh no, his weakness is that he's not great at anything. Jack of all trades, master of none. He's an above average athlete with good hands, good YAC skills, good body control and good ball-skills. I'm not calling Blackmon a bust, I'm just not calling him a great or elite prospect because he's not. He'll be a good Pro but he doesn't have the type of talent for me to want him in the top 5. |
I was unaware of his combine measurements, so I'll grant you that.
T.Y. Hilton and guys like that are different in terms of how they gain YAC. More pure speed and elusiveness than tackle breaking and stiff arms, so I wouldn't really compare the two.
To be honest, Blackmon reminds me alot of Crabtree when he was coming out. It's hard to tell how good Crabtree is or isn't, because WR production relies heavily on QB play.(Alex and Troy Smith?) |
And that's exactly why I don't see him as a great talent, I didn't think Crabtree was either. I thought Nicks and Harvin were better WRs in that draft class.
As for Hilton, yes, he does it a different way but he's better at it than Blackmon. Same thing with Broyles although he breaks more tackles than Hilton. |
Hakeem Nicks was a consensus late first, early second round prospect. I'm not willing, at this point, to say that Crabtree doesn't have the ability to out perform Nicks. Having Eli Manning throw to you and the other guys he has had to divert attention have made him shine much brighter.
Look at their Catch rates this past year:
2011-
Nicks-57%
Crabtree-64%
I know most of the counting statistics are largely in favor of Nicks, but I think taking team context into consideration plays a large factor. Crabtree has faced terrible QB play, constant change in Offensive coordinator, and a lack of being surrounded by WR talent.
I understand that Blackmon isn't the sexiest pick, but I generally prefer top picks that have very high floors, which he does. |
Yep, Nicks was but I really liked his skill-set and what I saw in him. He's not proving me wrong. I don't see Crabtree becoming a better player.
As for catch rate, according to ESPN's numbers, Crabtree is at 63% and Nicks at 57%. Which is a difference but when you consider that Nicks averaged 15.6 yards per catch compared to Crabtree's 12.1 yards per catch, it explains the difference.
And if you want to look at their YPT which accounts for both catch rate and yards per catch, Hakeem Nicks averaged 9.0 yards per target compared to Michael Crabtree's 7.7 yards per target. |
You don't think that could be a function of the varying styles of offense, or the surrounding pass catching talent?
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Yea, it definitely can be but so is catch rate.
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