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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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 Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: Glenn Dorsey |
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Ok, I know we have talked about Glenn Dorsey's future as a Chief and I wanted to get some opinions on as of right now, if you were the GM, would you look to trade Dorsey before he can hit the free agent market or do you view him as a key to our defense that is worth pursuing a long term extension with?
Try and balance not weakening the defense by the loss of Dorsey, but looking at possible scenarios where we could find an adequate replacement either through a player already on the roster, a free agent, or a draft pick.
Also, I am interested in trying to brainstorm on what other team might be interested in Dorsey. Of course, the tricky part would be allowing him to negotiate with the other team for an extension prior to the trade.
Personally, I wonder if the Giants and Saints might be interested. The Saints don't have a first round pick, so they might be leery of trading their second round pick. I wonder if the Giants would be willing to part ways with their second round pick for the chance to add a veteran player like Dorsey. |
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FrostyCow
Joined: 23 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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While Dorsey has improved and I like his fit well enough for us, I don't like our chances to re-sign him. That being said, he's probably worth a 3rd round pick right now if I had to guess. Personally, I would value him as a 2nd, but it's a buyers market.
I think the Panthers would be interested in bolstering the DT position. Their 2nd is a little too high for him, and they don't have a 3rd. I could see some package of their 2nd + 7th for Dorsey + 5th or something though. |
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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| FrostyCow wrote: | While Dorsey has improved and I like his fit well enough for us, I don't like our chances to re-sign him. That being said, he's probably worth a 3rd round pick right now if I had to guess. Personally, I would value him as a 2nd, but it's a buyers market.
I think the Panthers would be interested in bolstering the DT position. Their 2nd is a little too high for him, and they don't have a 3rd. I could see some package of their 2nd + 7th for Dorsey + 5th or something though. |
Good option. I like that as a possibility. Like I said, the tricky thing would be essentially working out a sign-and-trade agreement between the three parties (Chiefs, other team, and Dorsey) on the trade compensation and the contract extension. |
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bigschmadt00
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sign and trades like you are speaking of don't happen too often, and partly because the player would rather hit free agency and pick the team he goes to rather then signign a deal and getting shipped off.
IMO, Dorsey is still worth a good pick even without a long term deal. He's got the potential and all of that, plus has been pretty darn good as it is. The question for me is his long term health.
I'm starting to think that Dorsey is suffering from cronic knee problems, and the elite explosion he once had may be gone forever. He's still strong and technically proficient, but the explosion that allowed him to be a penetrating and disruptive type of player in college seems almost non-existent at this point, and is truly puzzling, except if you think that maybe his knees just aren't holding up. A quick google search returns info on 4 seperate knee injuries going back to his college days (2008, 2009 and 2011 come up which is interesting considering his best year was 2010 and he was never reported as injured that year). It's not hard to fill in the blanks and to start having some serious questions about his knees.
Here's a scouting report on him from the draft of 2008 - http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/glenn-dorsey?id=218
| Quote: | Positives: Has a thick upper body build that might lack ideal muscle tone, but he does compensate with good initial explosion and raw, natural power...When he stays low in his pads and keeps his hands inside the framework, he generates a good surge off the snap and into the blocker, doing a stellar job of clogging the rush lanes and collapsing the pocket...Shows good ability to redirect and make tackles in the backfield and has the initial burst that allows him to make plays to the outside...Shows good feet and body control working in space and plays with a high motor...Understands blocking schemes and has no trouble retaining plays, picking things up quickly...Has long, functionally strong arms and large hands to grab and drag the ball carriers down...Plays through pain, evident in 2006 when he competed with a stress fracture in his leg, and in 2007 when he refused to sit out any games despite a knee injury and a sore back...Always seems to be in the right position to make the play, showing a good flow to the ball in the short area (lacks timed speed to give chase in long pursuit)...Has a great work ethic and takes well to hard coaching...Good team leader who works hard in the training room...Has the change of direction agility to make plays moving down the line...His acceleration is evident with his short burst and he displays very good stamina (rare to see him run out of gas)...Has a good concept for taking pursuit angles, showing quickness and explosiveness off the snap...Has the ability to create a new line of scrimmage with his initial step and is quick to gain advantage and shoot the gaps...Displays very quick hands and feet coming out of his stance, plus the body control to recover when he out-runs the play...Has become a physically dominant player who demands double-teams, as he does a good job in using his strength and explosiveness to close gaps and play with good leverage...Doesn't give up much ground to double-teams and creates good separation with his long arms...Reacts well to block pressure and locates the ball quickly...Strong inside run defender who consistently keeps his motor running, as he can make plays up and down the line of scrimmage (just lacks long speed on the chase)...Does a nice job of using his quickness and change-of-direction to spin out...Rarely gives up ground vs. double teams (usually only when he gets too high in his stance and leaves his chest exposed)...Has the brute strength in his hands to neutralize...Splits and redirects with leverage, flashing good strength to penetrate...Does an outstanding job of making plays outside the box and down field, as he uses his long arms effectively to create separation...Will chase and make plays in short pursuit, showing aggressiveness and urgency working down the line...Has the power to make explosive tackles and generates good pressure through a combo pass block, destroying fullbacks who get in his path...Possesses good club and rip moves, as well as a good bull rush... Has the ability to create separation from his opponent with an initial strike...Shows a quick burst to close on the quarterback or halfback from inside the box...Separates in the open with good surge and has very good hand technique to control blocks and disengage.
Negatives: Has a thick frame and while not sloppy, he does lack solid muscle tone, but does compensate with outstanding initial quickness and lower body strength...While he explodes off the snap, he has just marginal speed to make plays in long pursuit (best when shooting the inside gaps rather than try to make plays on the outside)...Has a strong lower body, but he needs to improve his base (gets narrow in his stance), as blockers have had success getting underneath his pads to lock on and wash him out of the play (see 2007 Tulane, Kentucky and Tennessee, and 2006 Tulane and Mississippi State games)...Must do a better job of planting his foot and anchoring vs. double teams (has good hand placement, but needs to counter better at times)...Best when taking angles or shooting gaps (gets too caught up in the battle when taking on isolated blockers at the point of attack)...Lack of ideal size might limit him to one-gap schemes...Generates good penetration, but for some reason, he fails to seal the deal on the quarterback (has only seven pressures in 51 games)...Does not display an array of pass rush moves, but shows good burst on the bull rush...Good complimentary type, but by declining postseason all-star invites it leaves one to wonder if he can dominate at the next level or is a player who was covered up by the LSU gang-tackling scheme (Tiger defensive linemen in the past have not lived up to their college billing in the NFL).
Compares To: WARREN SAPP-Oakland...While both have made a nice living off their explosive initial step, Dorsey does not have the same game-changing ability Sapp displayed during the prime of his career. Let's face it, Dorsey is a good sanitation man (takes out the trash by handling multiple blockers, thus freeing a teammate up to make the play), but if statistics tell the true story, he had just 13 sacks, 27 stops for losses and seven quarterback pressures in 51 collegiate games. While we will follow the party line that he could develop into another Sapp, he also could be a clone of a former LSU Tiger, Anthony McFarland. |
As you can see, there was a lot of emphasis on Dorsey's intital explosion, quickness, burst, etc. His lower body strength was also a point of emphasis. Both of these things can be greatly impacted by knee problems.
Add to it that his weaknesses such as narrow base, lack of longer speed, footwork/anchoring, etc. do nothing but compound any problem he might have with his knees, and I think the picture becomes clearer. And of course that fact that he has repeatedly played through injuries several times, the cronic nature fo this problem may be past the point of no return.
In short, I'm very concerned Dorsey will never be the player he once was or could have been. His elite skills have been compromised through cronic injuries, and he just doesn't have other areas he can elevate to make up for those losses. It's hard to get faster, stronger, etc. if your knees are shot. If we could get a 3rd, I'd say it'd be a decent option for sure.
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valkrei
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3972
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Glenn Dorsey |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | Ok, I know we have talked about Glenn Dorsey's future as a Chief and I wanted to get some opinions on as of right now, if you were the GM, would you look to trade Dorsey before he can hit the free agent market or do you view him as a key to our defense that is worth pursuing a long term extension with?
Try and balance not weakening the defense by the loss of Dorsey, but looking at possible scenarios where we could find an adequate replacement either through a player already on the roster, a free agent, or a draft pick.
Also, I am interested in trying to brainstorm on what other team might be interested in Dorsey. Of course, the tricky part would be allowing him to negotiate with the other team for an extension prior to the trade.
Personally, I wonder if the Giants and Saints might be interested. The Saints don't have a first round pick, so they might be leery of trading their second round pick. I wonder if the Giants would be willing to part ways with their second round pick for the chance to add a veteran player like Dorsey. |
if we resign him I cant see it being a mega deal or anything. Personally I would look to trade him if we can pick up a NT in FA.
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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 5303
Location: SC
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Glenn Dorsey |
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| valkrei wrote: | | nicfre2011 wrote: | Ok, I know we have talked about Glenn Dorsey's future as a Chief and I wanted to get some opinions on as of right now, if you were the GM, would you look to trade Dorsey before he can hit the free agent market or do you view him as a key to our defense that is worth pursuing a long term extension with?
Try and balance not weakening the defense by the loss of Dorsey, but looking at possible scenarios where we could find an adequate replacement either through a player already on the roster, a free agent, or a draft pick.
Also, I am interested in trying to brainstorm on what other team might be interested in Dorsey. Of course, the tricky part would be allowing him to negotiate with the other team for an extension prior to the trade.
Personally, I wonder if the Giants and Saints might be interested. The Saints don't have a first round pick, so they might be leery of trading their second round pick. I wonder if the Giants would be willing to part ways with their second round pick for the chance to add a veteran player like Dorsey. |
if we resign him I cant see it being a mega deal or anything. Personally I would look to trade him if we can pick up a NT in FA. |
Would you be ok with Allen Bailey being a starter as the replacement for Dorsey? Or would you look to address the position in free agency or the draft (ex. Kendall Reyes, etc.?) |
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valkrei
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3972
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Glenn Dorsey |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | | valkrei wrote: | | nicfre2011 wrote: | Ok, I know we have talked about Glenn Dorsey's future as a Chief and I wanted to get some opinions on as of right now, if you were the GM, would you look to trade Dorsey before he can hit the free agent market or do you view him as a key to our defense that is worth pursuing a long term extension with?
Try and balance not weakening the defense by the loss of Dorsey, but looking at possible scenarios where we could find an adequate replacement either through a player already on the roster, a free agent, or a draft pick.
Also, I am interested in trying to brainstorm on what other team might be interested in Dorsey. Of course, the tricky part would be allowing him to negotiate with the other team for an extension prior to the trade.
Personally, I wonder if the Giants and Saints might be interested. The Saints don't have a first round pick, so they might be leery of trading their second round pick. I wonder if the Giants would be willing to part ways with their second round pick for the chance to add a veteran player like Dorsey. |
if we resign him I cant see it being a mega deal or anything. Personally I would look to trade him if we can pick up a NT in FA. |
Would you be ok with Allen Bailey being a starter as the replacement for Dorsey? Or would you look to address the position in free agency or the draft (ex. Kendall Reyes, etc.?) |
I would sign allen bailey now long term cheap, then trade dorsey and make bailey the starter.
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UPlay2Win
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Transition tag next year? We'd have to actually plan on keeping him though, otherwise nobody would bite.
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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bigschmadt00 wrote: | Sign and trades like you are speaking of don't happen too often, and partly because the player would rather hit free agency and pick the team he goes to rather then signign a deal and getting shipped off.
IMO, Dorsey is still worth a good pick even without a long term deal. He's got the potential and all of that, plus has been pretty darn good as it is. The question for me is his long term health.
I'm starting to think that Dorsey is suffering from cronic knee problems, and the elite explosion he once had may be gone forever. He's still strong and technically proficient, but the explosion that allowed him to be a penetrating and disruptive type of player in college seems almost non-existent at this point, and is truly puzzling, except if you think that maybe his knees just aren't holding up. A quick google search returns info on 4 seperate knee injuries going back to his college days (2008, 2009 and 2011 come up which is interesting considering his best year was 2010 and he was never reported as injured that year). It's not hard to fill in the blanks and to start having some serious questions about his knees.
Here's a scouting report on him from the draft of 2008 - http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/glenn-dorsey?id=218
| Quote: | Positives: Has a thick upper body build that might lack ideal muscle tone, but he does compensate with good initial explosion and raw, natural power...When he stays low in his pads and keeps his hands inside the framework, he generates a good surge off the snap and into the blocker, doing a stellar job of clogging the rush lanes and collapsing the pocket...Shows good ability to redirect and make tackles in the backfield and has the initial burst that allows him to make plays to the outside...Shows good feet and body control working in space and plays with a high motor...Understands blocking schemes and has no trouble retaining plays, picking things up quickly...Has long, functionally strong arms and large hands to grab and drag the ball carriers down...Plays through pain, evident in 2006 when he competed with a stress fracture in his leg, and in 2007 when he refused to sit out any games despite a knee injury and a sore back...Always seems to be in the right position to make the play, showing a good flow to the ball in the short area (lacks timed speed to give chase in long pursuit)...Has a great work ethic and takes well to hard coaching...Good team leader who works hard in the training room...Has the change of direction agility to make plays moving down the line...His acceleration is evident with his short burst and he displays very good stamina (rare to see him run out of gas)...Has a good concept for taking pursuit angles, showing quickness and explosiveness off the snap...Has the ability to create a new line of scrimmage with his initial step and is quick to gain advantage and shoot the gaps...Displays very quick hands and feet coming out of his stance, plus the body control to recover when he out-runs the play...Has become a physically dominant player who demands double-teams, as he does a good job in using his strength and explosiveness to close gaps and play with good leverage...Doesn't give up much ground to double-teams and creates good separation with his long arms...Reacts well to block pressure and locates the ball quickly...Strong inside run defender who consistently keeps his motor running, as he can make plays up and down the line of scrimmage (just lacks long speed on the chase)...Does a nice job of using his quickness and change-of-direction to spin out...Rarely gives up ground vs. double teams (usually only when he gets too high in his stance and leaves his chest exposed)...Has the brute strength in his hands to neutralize...Splits and redirects with leverage, flashing good strength to penetrate...Does an outstanding job of making plays outside the box and down field, as he uses his long arms effectively to create separation...Will chase and make plays in short pursuit, showing aggressiveness and urgency working down the line...Has the power to make explosive tackles and generates good pressure through a combo pass block, destroying fullbacks who get in his path...Possesses good club and rip moves, as well as a good bull rush... Has the ability to create separation from his opponent with an initial strike...Shows a quick burst to close on the quarterback or halfback from inside the box...Separates in the open with good surge and has very good hand technique to control blocks and disengage.
Negatives: Has a thick frame and while not sloppy, he does lack solid muscle tone, but does compensate with outstanding initial quickness and lower body strength...While he explodes off the snap, he has just marginal speed to make plays in long pursuit (best when shooting the inside gaps rather than try to make plays on the outside)...Has a strong lower body, but he needs to improve his base (gets narrow in his stance), as blockers have had success getting underneath his pads to lock on and wash him out of the play (see 2007 Tulane, Kentucky and Tennessee, and 2006 Tulane and Mississippi State games)...Must do a better job of planting his foot and anchoring vs. double teams (has good hand placement, but needs to counter better at times)...Best when taking angles or shooting gaps (gets too caught up in the battle when taking on isolated blockers at the point of attack)...Lack of ideal size might limit him to one-gap schemes...Generates good penetration, but for some reason, he fails to seal the deal on the quarterback (has only seven pressures in 51 games)...Does not display an array of pass rush moves, but shows good burst on the bull rush...Good complimentary type, but by declining postseason all-star invites it leaves one to wonder if he can dominate at the next level or is a player who was covered up by the LSU gang-tackling scheme (Tiger defensive linemen in the past have not lived up to their college billing in the NFL).
Compares To: WARREN SAPP-Oakland...While both have made a nice living off their explosive initial step, Dorsey does not have the same game-changing ability Sapp displayed during the prime of his career. Let's face it, Dorsey is a good sanitation man (takes out the trash by handling multiple blockers, thus freeing a teammate up to make the play), but if statistics tell the true story, he had just 13 sacks, 27 stops for losses and seven quarterback pressures in 51 collegiate games. While we will follow the party line that he could develop into another Sapp, he also could be a clone of a former LSU Tiger, Anthony McFarland. |
As you can see, there was a lot of emphasis on Dorsey's intital explosion, quickness, burst, etc. His lower body strength was also a point of emphasis. Both of these things can be greatly impacted by knee problems.
DDS
Add to it that his weaknesses such as narrow base, lack of longer speed, footwork/anchoring, etc. do nothing but compound any problem he might have with his knees, and I think the picture becomes clearer. And of course that fact that he has repeatedly played through injuries several times, the cronic nature fo this problem may be past the point of no return.
In short, I'm very concerned Dorsey will never be the player he once was or could have been. His elite skills have been compromised through cronic injuries, and he just doesn't have other areas he can elevate to make up for those losses. It's hard to get faster, stronger, etc. if your knees are shot. If we could get a 3rd, I'd say it'd be a decent option for sure. |
Well I wasn't talking about a sign and trade but basically putting him on the trade block. If the agent can seek out a team that may be interested the other team could work out the trade compensation. Again just a thought. |
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UPlay2Win
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 3037
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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No team is going to want to give up much if he tells them he is going to be testing FA after the year. A sign and trade (him agreeing to a contract with the new team prior to the trade) is our best bet.
Putting him on the trade block and allowing him to talk to other teams would be the same in many ways to going through the actual free agency process.
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UPlay2Win
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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For him not us
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nicfre2011
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| UPlay2Win wrote: | | For him not us |
Except the Chiefs would get some compensation for him...if he is not in their long term plans anyway |
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UPlay2Win
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| nicfre2011 wrote: | | UPlay2Win wrote: | | For him not us |
Except the Chiefs would get some compensation for him...if he is not in their long term plans anyway |
That's why it wouldn't be like losing him to free agency for us. I don't understand what you mean by the second part. We get compensation only if he leaves the team after next year?
I think there are a lot of different ways to go to replace Dorsey in the draft this year. There are also quite a few (compared to offensive tackle) options in FA that I think we could do more than ok with. If we were playing chess I would understand losing our Quenn Dorsey if it meant putting us in a position to gain an OTastle/rook 
That's not gunna be as funny as I'm taking it right now
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DT58_lives_on
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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Location: St. Cloud, MN
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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UPlay...I get what you're going for...but...SMH
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UPlay2Win
Joined: 05 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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hahaha
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