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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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 Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| matt79511 wrote: | | Everyone I listed would make the 2012 and contribute on special teams at the very least. Most would see snaps as a backup and some would even start. The same can't be said of really anyone that we drafted that year. |
That's not the point - some players pan out, others don't - people are complaining with the strategy and ALL of those players would have been back ups or special teams the year they were drafted.
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matt79511
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2193
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| MaddHatter wrote: | | matt79511 wrote: | | Everyone I listed would make the 2012 and contribute on special teams at the very least. Most would see snaps as a backup and some would even start. The same can't be said of really anyone that we drafted that year. |
That's not the point - some players pan out, others don't - people are complaining with the strategy and ALL of those players would have been back ups or special teams the year they were drafted. |
So? I'd take that over a bunch of guys who aren't even effective special teamers and are out of the league within 3 years.
They shouldn't have entered the draft with the mindset of "We're going to take a lot of special teamers. Our special teams are going to be great!" If you're SERIOUSLY drafting players who have no chance of ever seeing snaps on offense our defense before the 6th round, you deserve to be fired. Plain and simple. The best case scenario for the 2009 draft, because they entered it with such a horrible philosophy, would've been dominant special teams coverage. Whoop-de-doo. Worst case scenario? You get a bunch of guys who simply can't play at the next level, as actually happened.
I vehemently believe that they would have gotten better players if they'd actually targeted ones with the talent and skills to be a starter down the line.
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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That's what you're missing - We drafted four guys to groom into starters in the near future, a backup QB we needed, and then some depth/ST guys for a depleted secondary.
NYFDB elaborated quite well:
| Quote: | Both of our third round picks were made on guys that they hoped would develop into starters. Jason Williams and Robert Brewster were both definite misses, but they were definitely drafted with those hopes, not so they could be special teams players.
Stephen McGee was meant to be a backup, but drafting quarterbacks is a philosophy we both agree with, and if he had hit, he could have been a very wise investment (just like the Falcons drafting Matt Schaub in the 3rd round when they had Vick).
Victor Butler and Brandon Williams were obviously not drafted as immediate starters. But we had a definite need for pass rushers and if one of them was a success, they would likely be starting in 2012.
We (have always) had secondary needs and we drafted 4 guys there in hopes one of them would eventually step up.
I don't think there is anything wrong in expecting your 5-7th rounders to be able to contribute on Special Teams while they develop.
I think the fact of the matter is that we were handicapped without our first round pick and then just plain missed when we did step up to bat. The philosophy wasn't and still isn't something that troubled me. |
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sodakcowboy78
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 336
Location: sioux falls so dak
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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and who is the one guy Jerry really wanted in the second round...and didnt have the gonads to go up and get him...Max Unger...who is now a foundation piece on Seattles line....and i would trade every guy Dallas drafted in 2009 for Max Unger right now and back then...
But i think Jerry learned something form that draft...He moved up in round one and two the following year to secure the guys he wanted in Dez Bryant and Sean Lee and last year he resisted temptation to trade down in round one and stood pat to take his guy in Tryon Smith.
So maybe there is a bright side to the horrible horrible horrible 2009 draft...2010 and 2011 drafts may reflect a new direction and maybe...just maybe Jerry is learning from his mistakes |
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, there really is no defense to the 2009 draft. I find it comical that the only people who defend the draft now, are the people who adamantly defended the draft then. Guys, there comes to time just to ACCEPT that it was a horrible draft, ADMIT it and move on. I think most of you have accepted it internally, but you still have a hard time admitting it publicly. It just kills your credibility.
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Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Slamman wrote: | | Guys, there really is no defense to the 2009 draft. I find it comical that the only people who defend the draft now, are the people who adamantly defended the draft then. Guys, there comes to time just to ACCEPT that it was a horrible draft, ADMIT it and move on. I think most of you have accepted it internally, but you still have a hard time admitting it publicly. It just kills your credibility. |
Show me a draft that wouldn't have been backups and special teamers and maybe I'll give you credence.
Was it a crap draft for the Boys? Absolutely - Was it a crap draft for everyone else for the most part? Absolutely. Did the guys we took not pan out? Absolutely - Was there a way we could have drafted and it NOT been a slew of backups? Absolutely not.
We lost our Top 3 prospects right before our pick - if we stay and take Levitre, he's a backup behind Davis/Kosier/Gurode. Maybe we take Webb, but we just took Jenkins and Scandrick and Newman was coming off a good season so he's a backup. Maybe we take Mike Wallace but we just dumped a 1st, 3rd and 6th on Roy, so he's a backup (And yes, it was a horrible trade).
Whatever the case, you can keep calling the 2009 Draft crap, and it was, but to act like more than one or two teams came out of that draft with anything outside of the 1st is asinine.
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GrassyKnoll
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 338
Location: Denison, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| MadHatter, you need to cut your losses here. Many of us & many in the national media panned the 2009 Cowboy draft then & now. You are wrong today & if you defended that turd of a draft back in 2009 then you were wrong then too. You have lost all credibility as a poster here & that takes some doing. Wow! |
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| GrassyKnoll wrote: | | MadHatter, you need to cut your losses here. Many of us & many in the national media panned the 2009 Cowboy draft then & now. You are wrong today & if you defended that turd of a draft back in 2009 then you were wrong then too. You have lost all credibility as a poster here & that takes some doing. Wow! |
LMFAO - says the guy who can't even spell correctly... Why don't you read what I actually wrote and then respond back with an answer to my questions. Until you do that you "have lost all credibility as a poster here" 
Comments like that are one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on forums right behind "if so-and-so doesn't give me what I want, I'm quiting this mock draft"
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GrassyKnoll
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 338
Location: Denison, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Hatter, keep defending the wasted draft. You sound more & more absurd each time. |
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GrassyKnoll wrote: | | Hatter, keep defending the wasted draft. You sound more & more absurd each time. |
Keep dodging a simple questoin - you look more and more silly each time
(See I can do it too... )
Seriously - using all of your amazing hindsight and knowledge, using the picks we had, come up with a draft that makes sense AND doesn't come up with backups right off the bat.
Did the picks fail to develop/pan out? Absolutely - no denying that. Did we screw ourselves with the RW trade? Absolutely - I can't deny that either. Was our strategy and our choices based on our knowledge THEN and our Needs and talent level poor? I don't buy that
Feel free to prove me wrong though - all you're doing right now is acting a fool
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GrassyKnoll
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 338
Location: Denison, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hatter, your attempt to cajole me into offering a revised mock so you can bash it is a pathetic & logically flawed attempt to divert from the topic at hand. The choices made leading up to & including the 2009 draft were disasters. Other posters have documented the talented players who were available when we drafted or traded back. You know we could have done far better with that draft. Your calcified position of supporting that draft was wrong in 2009 & even more so today. It's no dig at you that you were wrong about the 2009 draft. However, it's completely silly now to keep defending it. Hence, the loss of credibility.  |
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| GrassyKnoll wrote: | | Hatter, your attempt to cajole me into offering a revised mock so you can bash it is a pathetic & logically flawed attempt to divert from the topic at hand. The choices made leading up to & including the 2009 draft were disasters. Other posters have documented the talented players who were available when we drafted or traded back. You know we could have done far better with that draft. Your calcified position of supporting that draft was wrong in 2009 & even more so today. It's no dig at you that you were wrong about the 2009 draft. However, it's completely silly now to keep defending it. Hence, the loss of credibility. |
I'm not sure what you think I'm saying, but it's certainly not what you're suggesting. I've simply said that bashing the FO and claiming their strategy was flawed is incorrect and that with the way the draft was setup and unfolded, it was impossible to reasonably draft anyone as a starter.
The fact remains YOU CAN'T come up with a better draft that's logical EVEN WITH HINDSIGHT which is the point. The fact you refuse to even try is all the proof I need. Hence, the loss of credibility
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The_Slamman
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 11669
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| GrassyKnoll wrote: | | Hatter, your attempt to cajole me into offering a revised mock so you can bash it is a pathetic & logically flawed attempt to divert from the topic at hand. The choices made leading up to & including the 2009 draft were disasters. Other posters have documented the talented players who were available when we drafted or traded back. You know we could have done far better with that draft. Your calcified position of supporting that draft was wrong in 2009 & even more so today. It's no dig at you that you were wrong about the 2009 draft. However, it's completely silly now to keep defending it. Hence, the loss of credibility. |
Nice call. MH and I have been done this road numerous times. I say Dallas should have traded up for a specific target such as unger. He says how do you know the cowboys didn't try to move up but no team in the second round prior to Seattle would accept a reasonable trade and simply forced our hands. I say draft Vollmer. He says trading down was okay because Vollmer wasn't a sure thing and by trading down we got a third and forth. I say those third and fourths are even less sure than Vollmer and time has proven me correct. Then, he says something like it doesn't matter because it was a bad draft and every team had the same problem, etc. I say all the more reason to be surgeon like and trade up for real players in a bad draft. He says how do you know that Jerry didn't try to trade up... You get the point. It's futile.
So, I just leave it with this...
I hated the draft the day of the draft and everyday since. I made my feelings well known. I thought we reached repeatedly and that the team drafted a bunch of special teamers and back ups. However, some people like NYFDB and MH really, genuinely LIKED the draft. And they made their feelings known on draft day. History has proven me (and those who thought like me) correct.
One more thing... When the cowboys cut Robert Brewster, NYFDB actually said something like he'd never defend the 2009 draft again. I guess that didn't last.
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Quote from May 7, 2013...
| MaddHatter wrote: | | Brian Price is still as talented as he ever was. |
On May 9th, 2013, Brian Price was waived by the Dallas Cowboys. |
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MaddHatter
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 41471
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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We've been down this road? Sorry Slam, don't recall that - guess I was too distracted doing my Kyle Williams' scouting report and missed those conversations.
Seriously though - trading up for Unger is GREAT - STILL a backup. Stay put and take Volmer and he's STILL a backup. Those guys would be coming in behind pro bowl players in their prime who went on to pave the way to our first post season win in 15+ years. Would Vollmer have competed at RT in hindsight? Possibly - but I doubt Wade drops Columbo for Vollmer during the preseason therefore he's still a backup which is your (and Plan's) biggest complaint with the draft.
As for your summary - I didn't care for the players we drafted, and I'm not defending them now and I NEVER backed it up then. I'm saying that claiming we had some strategy to draft backups and special teamers and we should have drafted starters is asinine.
Nice revisionist history though good sir - A+
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GrassyKnoll
Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Posts: 338
Location: Denison, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Slam, Hatter's whole argument is based on him trying to get everyone to prove a negative. It's a logical fallacy that impresses no one but him. If he likes that draft so much he can have it. To defend Jerry on that one is simply foolish, but it's his choice to do so. Everyone has an opinion, but some are not worth listening to. |
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