NFL Forum :: - Stanford Routt released!!!

Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

FAQ Register Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

FootballsFuture.com Home

Stanford Routt released!!!
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 29, 30, 31, 32 Next

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

oakdb36

Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 12766

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:27 pm Post subject:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

Is it that hard to imagine that a guy who gave up the most TDs and had the most penalties in the NFL is among the worst CB's in some peoples rankings? I wouldnt think so.

Yeah the main job of a CB is to avoid completions, but even more important then that is not giving up passing TDs. When you add on how many drives he kept alive with PIs or holding calls it makes the job he did allowing a low completion percentage a lot less meaningful. And like I said it doesnt factor in drops, poor passes by the QB, etc. Burn rate is a pretty poor way to judge a CB. Werent you just arguing against burn rate a few weeks ago when talking about Mike Mitchell?

To make it clear, i just want to understand how the same player can be rated at the top by some and at the bottom by others. It doesn't matter who the player is, i'm interested in the reasoning behind it.

I don't remember arguing against it about Mitchell. I do remember bringing up that stat when some were calling him a terrible coverage player though.

LivingLegendWFC

Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 10956
Location: BP On The Geno Sig

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject:

oakdb36 wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

With a player like Routt it would be rather easy. Like the burn rate, it shows completions against, but it doesnt factor in things like flags, and im not sure if it weighs TDs. Other areas might be more difficult, but with something like that it could be rather easy.
_________________

Favorite Prospects - Tank Carradine, Kwame Geathers, Gerald Hodges, Justin Hunter, Luke Joeckel, Barrett Jones, Jarvis Jones, Corey Lemonier, Bacarri Rambo, Sheldon Richardson, Geno Smith, Larry Warford,

NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12598
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

oakdb36 wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

oakdb36 wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

You can bring up burn rate, bring up whatever you want, but I can pull up other stats from other websites that say he was near the bottom level of CBs in the NFL.

I'd like to see those just to understand what those websites are basing their rankings on.

Someone else posted the ratings from PFF that shows him near the bottom of the league.

Means i have to go back through 29 pages to find them then... Well, maybe next time.

last year when he was ranked #3 best cb he gave up 5 tds

-he played with backups (gio, boyd, shep etc)
-had over 1000 snaps
-played in all the games (only cb on the roster to do so)
-and he still only gave up 8 tds (average 1 td every other game)
-the flags suck but some were iffy at best
_________________

green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

Baggabonez

Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 3778
Location: RaiderNation

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

oakdb36 wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

You can bring up burn rate, bring up whatever you want, but I can pull up other stats from other websites that say he was near the bottom level of CBs in the NFL.

I'd like to see those just to understand what those websites are basing their rankings on.

Someone else posted the ratings from PFF that shows him near the bottom of the league.

That would be me who posted the stats from PFF, the same site that produces the "burn rate". As I have stated many times statistics are a tool that if used improperly will you to a false conclusion. The abuser in this case is the original writer who used an arbitrary stat to mislead fans who wanted to believe Routt was worth his contract. PFF doesn't rank per se, they use a formula of accumulated stats which produces a grade. The grades are then listed in descending order.

If an elite player has a SINGLE down season his corresponding grade isn't something to lose your marbles over
_________________
2013 Mancrush: DT Richardson, OT Joeckel, FS Vaccaro, FS Rambo, WR Dobson, RB Michael, TE McDonald, OT Foketi, WR Swope

Last edited by Baggabonez on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12598
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

LivingLegendWFC wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

oakdb36 wrote:

BNich0622 wrote:

Seymour still performed at a Pro Bowl caliber level, although he did pick up some DUMB penalties. At least he performed on the field. And hasn't caused a problem with the coaches or his teammates. He is a leader and that's what this team continues to need.

You could hardly notice he was on the field for the better part of the season. The only reason he made the pro bowl is his name.

yea the whole defense failed he got in the pro bowl cause of name, the fact he got a few sacks early and some blocked kicks.

he took us out of the ne game early with his two penalties giving first downs.
he def leads the team in personal fouls and ejections over the last 4 years.
routt held his own he isnt elite but he was/is quietly getting there.

How many guys honestly become elite after many years in the league? Routt is as good as hes going to get. He was a penalty machine last season and gave up the most TDs in the NFL. Thats hardly on his way to being elite. Its one thing to say that Routt was solid, or our best CB, or gets hated on too much, but to say that he was working towards being elite is a flat out joke.

I dont think that Seymour did a great job last year, I also dont think he did his job, he sold out his LBs a lot, but he does offer a lot in the locker room. Watch videos of them in the locker room, Big Sey is the guys getting them motivated. Hes also the only guy on the team with winning experience. He not worth the money in terms of his level of play, but neither was Routt. At least Seymour offers something behind the scenes.

but you said dmac was a bust the first two years and then he became elite?
aso sucked his first few years before becoming elite.
welker, romo, austin etc became elite

so guys either come in the nfl elite or they will never be elite? really?

so routt had a down year. the whole defense had a down year. dmac had a down year, carlton had a down year. why single him out?

There is a difference from becoming elite after it taking a few years. Let me phrase it this way, how many guys become elite going into their eight season? Using cases of guys becoming elite after it taking a few seasons isnt nearly the same thing and I think you know that. Saying that after possibly his worst season doesnt help matters either.

Also DMC didnt have a down year, he got injured. Prior to that he was having the best season of his career, and the best season for a RB in the NFL last season. Palmer had a down year after coming in mid season with a whole new team, again not the same thing.

Your looking at everything so black and white, and not taking things on a case by case basis.

ok how many years did it take aso to be elite?

He broke out and had his best season in his fourth year. I wouldnt have called him elite after that season, but probably the following season. Routt has never had a year even close to what Aso did his breakout year. So your really helping to prove my point.

Especially when your trying to say hes on his way towards being elite after the worst season of his career, and one of the worst seasons for a CB in all the NFL. Sure Chuck didnt help much, but his job was pretty much the same as in years past. Press man coverage. Chuck's defense was down right pitiful, but not a lot changed in terms of what we asked CBs to do. It didnt help not having his FS over the top, but elite players CBs dont have to rely on safety help.

Even if you can find a guy that broke out into elite status after seven seasons those guys are extremely rare, and are usually the exception, not the rule.

I think people throw the word elite out way to often. If you label Austin and Romo elite then I think you might fall in that category.

Also you say didnt we learn from Aso about paying huge money to one CB and losing, but obviously that isnt true, because we did the same thing with Routt, who was a much lesser of a player. That is kind of what started this whole debate. Nobody said Routt is flat out garbage and that he doesnt belong on an NFL team. Most have said that they dont mind letting him go because the guy isnt worth of being paid like a top 5 CB. I dont see how thats wrong.

1) routt is not a fluke and had top 5 burn rating last year, and the #1 burn rating in the nfl after the first 3 weeks. putting him with the elite group of cbs.

2) defense gave up 31 pass tds and 16run tds routt played more snaps than any other cb so his chances went up

Quote:

JasonLaCanfora Jason La Canfora
I'd expect Routt to do alright on the open market. Oakland had a lot of scheme issues a year ago. Entire defense suffered

7 fumbles
23 ints
78 punts

the defense (routt played all snaps also top 5 for cbs) was on the field a majority of the year. that leaves a lot of chances for dbs to be exposed esp in chuck zone (we played more zone this year than we did the last 4-5 years).

routt 47.4 burn 8 tds 4ints
shep 58.8 1td
dvd 43.8 1td 1int
huff 55.3 2tds 2ints
branch 55.7 5tds 1int
mitch 34.6 2tds 1int
gio 42.5 3tds 5ints
boyd 54.5 3tds
cj 71.4 1td

We played more zone this year then the past four to five, but thats not hard to do. We still played more man coverage then any other team in the NFL, which is supposed to be his specialty.

I dont care about burn rate, that doesnt take into account the penalties on Routt, it doesnt take away passes that were inaccurate by a QB. Hell looking at the rest of the teams burn rates it shows how much garbage that stat really is. Looking at all those burn rates you would think our passing defense would be top notch, when in fact is was a huge problem. We always are close to leading the NFL in percentage against, but that doesnt do a ton of good when your leading the league in passing TDs against. The defense also wasnt on the field as much as in past years, it wasnt an excuse peopel used then. Did our offense sputter at times? Without a doubt, was it as bad as our offense usually is? Not even close.

Bottom line if you watched Stanford Routt last season and saw an "elite" player, your definition and my definition of elite are two completely different things. When I think of the word elite I think of the very best the game has to offer. A group that is the most dominant at their position in the league. Routt simply is not in that category, and I would have argued this with anybody that wanted to call him elite prior to him being cut.

I would also argue against anybody that says he sucks. He can be a good CB, he can also be a bad CB. He has never been consistent. That was his problem, he didnt suck overall, but he has never been a lockdown CB or a great ball hawk, how can you be neither of those things and an elite player? You have to be consistent, bottom line, its something you need to be considered elite.

If Routt was making average money and was cut I would disagree with it wholeheartedly, but he was being paid like a top five CB and thus had to be let go because the pay wasnt on par with the play. I can except that line of thinking. Its a smart decision, football is a business. If you ran a business would you pay a guy a huge salary if you could get a guy that does what hes capable of doing for a much cheaper price? Maybe you would, but if thats the case you would have some type of bias clouding your judgement.

You can bring up burn rate, bring up whatever you want, but I can pull up other stats from other websites that say he was near the bottom level of CBs in the NFL. I really could not disagree with you more about Routt being an elite CB. I think most football fans that have seen Routt play would agree with me on this. Your group of elite players must be huge, my group of elite players at the CB position has two, maybe three guys in it.

just so you know

Quote:

Of the starting corners in the league, the Jets' Darrelle Revis (41.2%) and the Steelers' Ike Taylor (41.7%) led the league.

only routt, gio, dvd and mm were under 50%
and dvd, gio and mm missed alot of games
so the burn rate accurately shows how bad our dbs were
_________________

green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

Last edited by NCOUGHMAN on Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12598
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

This 'burn rate' statistic need to stop.

It's a faulty stat. There is no sounds evidence behind it.

One source will say a guy is the best and one source says he's among the worst. It's irrelevant.

Watch the game on Sunday. I saw enough of Routt out of Nnamdi's shadow to say he was average at best.

Burn rate? 8TDs. That's burning someone to a crisp! Teams disrespect your game so much they go at you to the tune of 8TDs. And when you were not giving up the TD, you're drawing the flag?

I've invented a new statistic. Its call 'easy target percentage':

I've watched all the tape from 2010 and 2011. I've come away with the following on Stanford Routt"

His 'easy target percentage' or 'ETP' is a league worst 50.38292%. This percentage represents a tendency for QBs to throw at Routt with a 50.38292% chance of scoring a TD or getting a penalty that results in a first down.

What we gather from Routt's 'ETP' is that if you want to move the chains or score on offense, throw in Routt's direction as it will inevitably pay off.

Make up some numbers, add catchy phrases, say it with absolute certainty and it has to be true, right?

since you've watched all the tape from 2011
which wrs scored tds on routt?
off top i know bowe and megatron....so who are the other 6?
_________________

green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

raidr4life

Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 2177
Location: Fresno, California

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject:

Routt is ok! And can probably be better in some up to date defensive scheme, but please stop acting like the guy is Revis Island he got paid etrirely too much for performance and everyone knew it when Al gave him that ridiculous contract. He is not worth the money bottom line. And we could bring in 2 guys who are not penalty machines for what he cost us. Plus i believe Chekwa and DVD can both be better than Routt sooner rather than later. Routt was worst than both of them in his rookie season. And still it took him this long to even be decent.
_________________

OUR FUTURE PREMIERE LT!!
Mad props to Silver&Black88 on the sig.

NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12598
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject:

raidr4life wrote:

fwiw routt had his break out season in year 3 (the first year he started).
then the deal for d. hall was made and routt didnt start for another 2 years.
remember................

2005 he was stuck behind aso and woodson
2006 stuck behind aso and fabian (year aso broke out with 8 ints)
2007 first year starting opposite aso and he lead all dbs in ints for the team
2008 stuck behind aso and d.hall and cj experiment
2009 stuck behind aso and cj
2010 starts again and blows up while being targeted more than any other cb in the nfl

imo hes been ready since 2007. raider politics kept him from starting till 2010
_________________

green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

Tacos

Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Posts: 980

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

Tacos wrote:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

Dude BP, just don't.

Besides, we still need to find a Mark.

Am I doing it right?

You don't need Mark, I can play a mean air guitar.

Don't make me go all RaiderX on you. Too late.

Ok, surely I can't get it wrong twice.

We're going to be the Funky Bunch right?
_________________

DOCLEW 28

Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10589
Location: East Oakland

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:31 am Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

raider politics kept him from starting till 2010

And horrible fundamentals made him a grasping grabbing flag magnet in 2011 and unemployed in early 2012.

Can you honestly say he was worth being near the top in pay for a CB in the NFL? Did he warrant all that seeing how he played this past year? I just can't justify him being anywhere near the top. And with his apparent attitude, no coach or GM would want him around this place. He had a sence of entitlement because he was on the "Al Davis" scholarship program.

Let's see him try that crap somewhere else.
_________________

Raider X hooked me with the sig

BNich0622

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 1554
Location: Connecticut

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:38 am Post subject:

I think Routt's biggest problem was his contract. He just didn't perform in accordance with the money he was being paid or at least it seemed. He didn't have much help in the rest of the secondary but that's the nature of the beast (business of the NFL). What have you done for me lately? A lot of questions/holes to be filled this off-season I have my seat belt on and I am ready for the ride.

Should be interesting!
_________________

Thanks to RaiderX for the sig

daineraider

Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 3570
Location: Salt Lake City

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:40 am Post subject:

30 pages on cutting Stanford Routt. Must be the pre-offseason.
_________________

Sigged by Jamison

BNich0622

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 1554
Location: Connecticut

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:56 am Post subject:

daineraider wrote:

30 pages on cutting Stanford Routt. Must be the pre-offseason.

I laugh every time I see the page count too. I think DMC was discussed for half of it some how as well.
_________________

Thanks to RaiderX for the sig

NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12598
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:18 am Post subject:

BNich0622 wrote:

daineraider wrote:

30 pages on cutting Stanford Routt. Must be the pre-offseason.

I laugh every time I see the page count too. I think DMC was discussed for half of it some how as well.

dmac is kinda like my homie's 95 ss camero w t-tops, super clean. it was a 350 but he modded n has it going at about 400hp. its a monster goes so fast feels like you are about to take off. he even has nos canisters. it was tight for a few months then back on the shelf due to technical difficulties tight then back in the shelf. long story short my homie got a 2door regal for cheap and it runs everyday.
_________________

green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

raidr4life

Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 2177
Location: Fresno, California

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:36 am Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

raidr4life wrote:

Sorry not buying this. If he was ready there is no way in hell we break the bank for Deangelo Hall. Then pay CJ top dollar later on.

Raider politics? You mean dictatorship. The man who ran it all didnt like what he saw in 2007 therefore wanted to replace him with not one but two CB's pushing him so far down the depth chart Im surprised he made it back into the starting lineup. It seems to me his 2010 opportunity came because of injuries with CJ and no other quality CB wanted to come and play for us. Granted he did make the most out of 2010, You would be in the minority thinking he's been ready since 2007 even the man who drafted him didnt think so. And Al loved his CB's.
P.S. Breaking into the starting lineup does not mean he had a breakout season.
_________________

OUR FUTURE PREMIERE LT!!
Mad props to Silver&Black88 on the sig.

Display posts from previous:

       FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Oakland Raiders All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 29, 30, 31, 32  Next

Page 30 of 32

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum