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Kaiowas05
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 945
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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| SUG wrote: | | Jaytotha wrote: | | Its going to be interesting on how people in here view Ireland if he makes the trade up for RGIII. |
You know, that right there in Mia is gonna be the interesting part of the dynamics in 2012.
Cause the way I see it:
* if Philbin don't want a player he ain't comin.
And
* if it gets too expensive (exhorbitant multiple pks) Ross may not sign off.
But there will be no doubt in mind that I have been right all along regarding Irelands disdain for
drafting a QB in the 1st rnd.It just goes against his nature & the GM he was brought up to be.
It would have taken the owner hiring an Off genius himself to get it done.
sug |
rearding this, see Bill Parcells and his approach with Phil Simms along the lines of "there's three things can happen when you pass and two of them are bad"
I know its not originally his quote but I remember it turning up when I read LTs bio |
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SUG
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6456
Location: Alameda, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Blagasse67 wrote: | | SUG wrote: | | Blagasse67 wrote: | | SUG wrote: | | Jaytotha wrote: | | Its going to be interesting on how people in here view Ireland if he makes the trade up for RGIII. |
You know, that right there in Mia is gonna be the interesting part of the dynamics in 2012.
Cause the way I see it:
* if Philbin don't want a player he ain't comin.
And
* if it gets too expensive (exhorbitant multiple pks) Ross may not sign off.
But there will be no doubt in mind that I have been right all along regarding Irelands disdain for
drafting a QB in the 1st rnd.
It just goes against his nature & the GM he was brought up to be.
It would have taken the owner hiring an Off genius himself to get it done.
sug |
When has he been able to go after a QB? How do you know he wasn't on the phone this year to trade up? How do you know they felt that Gabbert wasn't their guy. You don't take a QB to take a QB. You take a QB because you feel he is your guy. Now late rounds you go after your QB because you feel he has upside as at least a back up. I think JI wanted to get a player that would make a difference rather than reach for a QB. |
Could we include Ponder & Dalton in this conversation...?
Guess he missed the boat twice there.
sug |
Again. Ireland probably didn't feel that Dalton nor Ponder were the guys he wanted. I think they were smart to wait. You can't just draft a QB for the sake of drafting one. you have to know he is a project or you have to know that he is the guy you want to put your franchise on. |
Look, If Ireland didn't feel Dalton or Ponder "were the guys he wanted" ...
then the problem is not "the talent pool", clearly the problem is we need a new GM capable of
identifying a quality QB in the 1st rnd.
He's been in Mia 5 yrs B67, Daltons going to the Pro Bowl !
I just cannot understand why anyone would debate Ireland is both skittish & ill equipped to
identify & draft a quality QB in the 1st rnd...!?!?
sug
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ukdolfan
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 8848
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I can't help but laugh imagining how hacked off most of you would have been at the time if Ireland drafted Ponder/Dalton early in the first round.
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12329
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ukdolfan wrote: | | I can't help but laugh imagining how hacked off most of you would have been at the time if Ireland drafted Ponder/Dalton early in the first round. |
Could be, but I seem to recall a large contingency of posters that wanted Ponder and another who were solidly behind Dalton.
Whatever, the case, the sample size for Ireland appears to be rather small. We can't know how much influence Parcells had when he was here. Did he make the call or did Ireland? Since he's been gone Ireland has done alright....but again the sample size is small, the true evaluation of a draft class is often years away, and he hasn't been able to get us the signal caller we desperately need. Throw in the fact that he's had MULTIPLE stories in the press of being a class A jerk and I think the jury is very much out on Ireland.
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"22 players are involved in every football play. To value precisely the activity of one of them, it is first necessary to account for the actions of the other 21" |
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Blagasse67
Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 11183
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| SUG wrote: | | Blagasse67 wrote: | | SUG wrote: | | Blagasse67 wrote: | | SUG wrote: | | Jaytotha wrote: | | Its going to be interesting on how people in here view Ireland if he makes the trade up for RGIII. |
You know, that right there in Mia is gonna be the interesting part of the dynamics in 2012.
Cause the way I see it:
* if Philbin don't want a player he ain't comin.
And
* if it gets too expensive (exhorbitant multiple pks) Ross may not sign off.
But there will be no doubt in mind that I have been right all along regarding Irelands disdain for
drafting a QB in the 1st rnd.
It just goes against his nature & the GM he was brought up to be.
It would have taken the owner hiring an Off genius himself to get it done.
sug |
When has he been able to go after a QB? How do you know he wasn't on the phone this year to trade up? How do you know they felt that Gabbert wasn't their guy. You don't take a QB to take a QB. You take a QB because you feel he is your guy. Now late rounds you go after your QB because you feel he has upside as at least a back up. I think JI wanted to get a player that would make a difference rather than reach for a QB. |
Could we include Ponder & Dalton in this conversation...?
Guess he missed the boat twice there.
sug |
Again. Ireland probably didn't feel that Dalton nor Ponder were the guys he wanted. I think they were smart to wait. You can't just draft a QB for the sake of drafting one. you have to know he is a project or you have to know that he is the guy you want to put your franchise on. |
Look, If Ireland didn't feel Dalton or Ponder "were the guys he wanted" ...
then the problem is not "the talent pool", clearly the problem is we need a new GM capable of
identifying a quality QB in the 1st rnd.
He's been in Mia 5 yrs B67, Daltons going to the Pro Bowl !
I just cannot understand why anyone would debate Ireland is both skittish & ill equipped to
identify & draft a quality QB in the 1st rnd...!?!?
sug |
Both QBs were taken before our picks and it was not worth the move up to get either one. Hindsight right now may say that Dalton is a franchise QB after a good season but they said the same about Mark Sanchez.
You guys seriously think that drafting a QB just to draft one makes sense. You don't just draft a Qb because he is the best one left. You draft a QB because you feel he is your franchise QB. I would agree with Ireland after watching Ponder and Dalton, they aren't worth reaching or trading up for. I will almost bet you anything Jeff Ireland didn't like any QB in last years draft. I don't blame him because i didn't either. Was i wrong about Cam Newton? I think a lot of us were.
Do you remember us taking a QB because he was the 3rd best and we needed one? Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco and Chad Henne. We went after the 3rd best QB because he was a QB and the "best" left.
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ovaw8lover
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 8666
Location: Dolphins Stadium
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | | ukdolfan wrote: | | I can't help but laugh imagining how hacked off most of you would have been at the time if Ireland drafted Ponder/Dalton early in the first round. |
Could be, but I seem to recall a large contingency of posters that wanted Ponder and another who were solidly behind Dalton.
Whatever, the case, the sample size for Ireland appears to be rather small. We can't know how much influence Parcells had when he was here. Did he make the call or did Ireland? Since he's been gone Ireland has done alright....but again the sample size is small, the true evaluation of a draft class is often years away, and he hasn't been able to get us the signal caller we desperately need. Throw in the fact that he's had MULTIPLE stories in the press of being a class A jerk and I think the jury is very much out on Ireland. |
Really? Outside of the Dez Bryant fiasco, what has Ireland done that made him a jerk? Before you start throwing his skeletons out there, consider the source(s).
I am not even going to bash him for the Dez Bryant thing. Everything that I have read concerning the questions concerning Dez's mother was taken out of context. He asked if his mother was a (woman of the night). Think about that for one second. No one just comes out and asks that question out of the blue. I am sure Dez said something that prompted Ireland to ask that question. His curiousity probably got the best of him, which caused him to ask the question. I wouldnt say that makes him a jerk.
He did his boy Tony Sparano wrong but it is survival of the fittest. Ireland was trying to save his butt. I am sure most of you would have kissed the new bosses ring the same way Ireland did.
Miami just needs to get a QB. If Miami gets a QB, Jeff Ireland is a great GM all of a sudden. Peoples perception changes with wins. I can care less what Ireland does as long as he gets a QB. I could care less if he flipped Channing Cowder the bird on his way out, if he gets a QB.
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"Yesterday Is History, Tomorrow Is A Mystery, And Today Is A Gift. That Is Why It Is Called The Present.""
— — Master Oogway from Kung Fu Panda |
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ukdolfan
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 8848
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| ovaw8lover wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | ukdolfan wrote: | | I can't help but laugh imagining how hacked off most of you would have been at the time if Ireland drafted Ponder/Dalton early in the first round. |
Could be, but I seem to recall a large contingency of posters that wanted Ponder and another who were solidly behind Dalton.
Whatever, the case, the sample size for Ireland appears to be rather small. We can't know how much influence Parcells had when he was here. Did he make the call or did Ireland? Since he's been gone Ireland has done alright....but again the sample size is small, the true evaluation of a draft class is often years away, and he hasn't been able to get us the signal caller we desperately need. Throw in the fact that he's had MULTIPLE stories in the press of being a class A jerk and I think the jury is very much out on Ireland. |
Really? Outside of the Dez Bryant fiasco, what has Ireland done that made him a jerk? Before you start throwing his skeletons out there, consider the source(s).
I am not even going to bash him for the Dez Bryant thing. Everything that I have read concerning the questions concerning Dez's mother was taken out of context. He asked if his mother was a (woman of the night). Think about that for one second. No one just comes out and asks that question out of the blue. I am sure Dez said something that prompted Ireland to ask that question. His curiousity probably got the best of him, which caused him to ask the question. I wouldnt say that makes him a jerk.
He did his boy Tony Sparano wrong but it is survival of the fittest. Ireland was trying to save his butt. I am sure most of you would have kissed the new bosses ring the same way Ireland did.
Miami just needs to get a QB. If Miami gets a QB, Jeff Ireland is a great GM all of a sudden. Peoples perception changes with wins. I can care less what Ireland does as long as he gets a QB. I could care less if he flipped Channing Cowder the bird on his way out, if he gets a QB. |
I don't think it was put in proper context either and I don't think that it was irrelevant either. Look at Bryant he messes up almost monthly and must have one of the weakest support systems of any player in the NFL.
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ovaw8lover
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 8666
Location: Dolphins Stadium
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| ukdolfan wrote: | | ovaw8lover wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | | ukdolfan wrote: | | I can't help but laugh imagining how hacked off most of you would have been at the time if Ireland drafted Ponder/Dalton early in the first round. |
Could be, but I seem to recall a large contingency of posters that wanted Ponder and another who were solidly behind Dalton.
Whatever, the case, the sample size for Ireland appears to be rather small. We can't know how much influence Parcells had when he was here. Did he make the call or did Ireland? Since he's been gone Ireland has done alright....but again the sample size is small, the true evaluation of a draft class is often years away, and he hasn't been able to get us the signal caller we desperately need. Throw in the fact that he's had MULTIPLE stories in the press of being a class A jerk and I think the jury is very much out on Ireland. |
Really? Outside of the Dez Bryant fiasco, what has Ireland done that made him a jerk? Before you start throwing his skeletons out there, consider the source(s).
I am not even going to bash him for the Dez Bryant thing. Everything that I have read concerning the questions concerning Dez's mother was taken out of context. He asked if his mother was a (woman of the night). Think about that for one second. No one just comes out and asks that question out of the blue. I am sure Dez said something that prompted Ireland to ask that question. His curiousity probably got the best of him, which caused him to ask the question. I wouldnt say that makes him a jerk.
He did his boy Tony Sparano wrong but it is survival of the fittest. Ireland was trying to save his butt. I am sure most of you would have kissed the new bosses ring the same way Ireland did.
Miami just needs to get a QB. If Miami gets a QB, Jeff Ireland is a great GM all of a sudden. Peoples perception changes with wins. I can care less what Ireland does as long as he gets a QB. I could care less if he flipped Channing Cowder the bird on his way out, if he gets a QB. |
I don't think it was put in proper context either and I don't think that it was irrelevant either. Look at Bryant he messes up almost monthly and must have one of the weakest support systems of any player in the NFL. |
I agree. He is a great talent but he will never achieve his potential. He is too high strung. He is good for one quarter of football per game. Miami would have been the worst place for him. Didnt he just get arrested in Miami? Whatever happened, I am flad Miami did not take him. B.Marsh is enough, do not need two of them, especially without a QB.
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"Yesterday Is History, Tomorrow Is A Mystery, And Today Is A Gift. That Is Why It Is Called The Present.""
— — Master Oogway from Kung Fu Panda |
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12329
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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There have been more than a few players that GM and HC's thought would "never live up to their potential"....the two cases at WR that come to mind are Chris Carter and Irving Fryar. People can and do change. I'm am not, for a second, saying that Bryant will for sure be one of those guys, but from a pure talent level he's got "it". As to what the context was when Ireland asked his question....well, I can't imagine many where that would be appropriate or relevant.
As to cases where Ireland was/has been shown to be a jerk, well, there is the Channing Crowder incident, the Dez Bryant incident, and the Tony Sparano incident, where Ireland was reported to have back stabbed Sparano by pursuing and encouraging the pursuit of Harbaugh. Some thought Sparano and Ireland could not work together after that incident. Clearly they were wrong about them working together, but reports indicate the relationship between the two has been icy at best.
Twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern.
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"22 players are involved in every football play. To value precisely the activity of one of them, it is first necessary to account for the actions of the other 21" |
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ovaw8lover
Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 8666
Location: Dolphins Stadium
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mercury22 wrote: | There have been more than a few players that GM and HC's thought would "never live up to their potential"....the two cases at WR that come to mind are Chris Carter and Irving Fryar. People can and do change. I'm am not, for a second, saying that Bryant will for sure be one of those guys, but from a pure talent level he's got "it". As to what the context was when Ireland asked his question....well, I can't imagine many where that would be appropriate or relevant.
As to cases where Ireland was/has been shown to be a jerk, well, there is the Channing Crowder incident, the Dez Bryant incident, and the Tony Sparano incident, where Ireland was reported to have back stabbed Sparano by pursuing and encouraging the pursuit of Harbaugh. Some thought Sparano and Ireland could not work together after that incident. Clearly they were wrong about them working together, but reports indicate the relationship between the two has been icy at best.
Twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern. |
Hold up? The Channing Crowder incident? What is the Channing Crowder incident? The fact that Channing Crowder does not like him? That is an incident? That, my friend, is not an incident. That is one ex-player not liking the GM, who, by the way, refused to give him a long term deal. I am pretty sure Channing Crowder would have held his tongue if Ireland had given him a 3 year 50 million dollar contract. Hell, Osi Umenyora hates his GM. Does that make him bad? No, it does not. It is one mans perception.
I will fault him for the Dez Bryant mix up because he did ask the question, regardless of the emotion of the conversation.
I do not fault him for the Sparano situation. What was he suppose to do? Was he suppose to go to Tony and say "Tony they are getting ready to board the Jet to California and look for your replacement?" Dude c'mon. It is ok to dislike someone but have a good reason for it. Blame the OWNER, not the person working for the OWNER. Ireland's hands were tied. So was he suppose to jeopardize his employment by telling his boy? Screw that!! Ireland has handled everything fine with the exception of that Dez Bryant incident and I am not so sure it went down the way the media portrayed it.
If Jeff Ireland finds a QB, no one will care. Just like no one cares about Jerry Reese and Osi's relationship right now.
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"Yesterday Is History, Tomorrow Is A Mystery, And Today Is A Gift. That Is Why It Is Called The Present.""
— — Master Oogway from Kung Fu Panda |
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Mercury22
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12329
Location: the 50 yard line
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ovaw8lover wrote: | | Mercury22 wrote: | There have been more than a few players that GM and HC's thought would "never live up to their potential"....the two cases at WR that come to mind are Chris Carter and Irving Fryar. People can and do change. I'm am not, for a second, saying that Bryant will for sure be one of those guys, but from a pure talent level he's got "it". As to what the context was when Ireland asked his question....well, I can't imagine many where that would be appropriate or relevant.
As to cases where Ireland was/has been shown to be a jerk, well, there is the Channing Crowder incident, the Dez Bryant incident, and the Tony Sparano incident, where Ireland was reported to have back stabbed Sparano by pursuing and encouraging the pursuit of Harbaugh. Some thought Sparano and Ireland could not work together after that incident. Clearly they were wrong about them working together, but reports indicate the relationship between the two has been icy at best.
Twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern. |
Hold up? The Channing Crowder incident? What is the Channing Crowder incident? The fact that Channing Crowder does not like him? That is an incident? That, my friend, is not an incident. That is one ex-player not liking the GM, who, by the way, refused to give him a long term deal. I am pretty sure Channing Crowder would have held his tongue if Ireland had given him a 3 year 50 million dollar contract. Hell, Osi Umenyora hates his GM. Does that make him bad? No, it does not. It is one mans perception.
I will fault him for the Dez Bryant mix up because he did ask the question, regardless of the emotion of the conversation.
I do not fault him for the Sparano situation. What was he suppose to do? Was he suppose to go to Tony and say "Tony they are getting ready to board the Jet to California and look for your replacement?" Dude c'mon. It is ok to dislike someone but have a good reason for it. Blame the OWNER, not the person working for the OWNER. Ireland's hands were tied. So was he suppose to jeopardize his employment by telling his boy? Screw that!! Ireland has handled everything fine with the exception of that Dez Bryant incident and I am not so sure it went down the way the media portrayed it.
If Jeff Ireland finds a QB, no one will care. Just like no one cares about Jerry Reese and Osi's relationship right now. |
I totally agree that if Ireland finds a QB/or the team starts winning, no one will care. Winning makes every jerk seem like a genius.
As for the question of Crowder, yes, he has reason for sour grapes...as you pointed out and many others have as well (including me) in this thread. However, sour grapes can be based in reality. Crowder didn't say I hate Ireland because he is a cross dresser. Or that he hates Ireland and that Ireland has no taste in clothes or women. He continued a refrain we've already heard before, which, in my opinion, lends legitimacy to the sour grapes.
As for the Sparano incident...Ireland and Sparano were brought in by Parcells as a team. Ireland's JOB is not to be a "yes" man to the owner, but to be a guy that challenges the owners thinking when/if the owner is going down a bad road. That is especially true when the owner is NOT a football guy as we have in Ross. Ireland should have known better than sticking it to his coach (Sparano) and known what would happen if/when they weren't able to land Harbaugh. That kind of press can truly effect the long term health of the franchise when it comes to finding coaches. We saw some of the blow back this year. Here is one quote from an article during that time about Ireland: "Put simply, Ireland is saving himself — and in turn allowing Sparano to twist in the wind. One league source said that the behavior will stick with Ireland, and that no coach will ever be able to fully trust him again." Many "Phinsiders" have said the relationship between Sparano and Ireland was icy at best after that. It was a bad move and a jerk move. Sparano's icy relationship is proof that Ireland didn't handle it well.
I have no reason to randomly dislike Ireland. There has been plenty of bad things said about him. Some by people who have sour grapes. Others who were not drafted by the Dolphins. And others were simply the press making logical conclusions from limited info. And yes, bottom line, if he produces a winner it won't matter. However, if no one wants to work in Miami because the boss is a grade "A" jerk then it does matter. I have had jobs I quit because I didn't like my boss. And if I was a free agent looking for a landing place, or a top flight coach looking for a job, and I found two gigs where all things were nearly equal, I certainly would factor in who I report to when making my decision. I'd say that's common sense.
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