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The LBC


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
When's the last time we offered a young guy that wasn't a backup in FA's. I liked the Burnett Signing, but he was a nobody when he was playing for Dallas. Like I said, i want some decently young guys, who still have year's left in their career, and have been starters for a team. Like the guys i listed.


When's the last time one of those guys was on the open market at a position of need for us when we also didn't have a major free agent of our own to ensure we retained?

This year, Poslusny would have been extremely nice, but we had to make Weddle a priority.

The previous offseason, Peppers, Dansby, Jammal Brown all would have been nice to have, but again we had our own in McNeill, Jackson, and Gates to concern ourselves with first - not to mention the looming uncertainty as to what the terms of a new CBA would be.

Offseason before that, we had Rivers' extension leading the list of priorities. And really the only guys that hit the open market that meet your criteria and fit needs for this team at the time were maybe Antonio Brown, maybe Michael Boley, and then Dunta Robinson (a year after we'd just drafted a CB in the 1st round and still had Cro on the team).

Fact is the opportunity for us to even throw our hat in the ring has been rare (unless you go all the back to Jordan Gross' free agency) because rarely are these players (the ones that are worth it) ever allowed by the teams that draft them to hit the market and even then they rarely matched up with areas of need for us.

And I support some of the guys you're suggesting, but don't bill them as something their not - which is retreads. Sometimes the retreads work out, but every one of them was, at best, a guy who was once a starter and who was upgraded over or passed on his respective depth chart by other players (be it due to scheme fit, injury, or whatever). In the case of Bennett, he was never a starter for Dallas except in instances where Witten was injured, and the main reason Dallas is willing to let him walk is because they have John Phillips on the roster who has shown to be as good and more consistent in all aspects of the game as Bennett.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The-Beast wrote:
The LBC wrote:
We have had one successful one over the same time period Burnett.

The problem I have with most of our signings is either they completely suck (Spikes, Laboy) or they're no duh signings (Gaither, Barnes).

I would put Tommie Harris in the successful ones if he has a similar season next year.


Barnes' initial signing was a no duh one, necessitated by the fact that our depth at OLB was miserable with English injured and Merriman waived and Tucker injured (and being average-at-best to begin with). His re-signing though wasn't so much no duh. He had some success as a pass-rusher for us, not nearly as much as a run-defender, but he was effectively viewed at the time as little more than decent depth who already knew the system - at that point he was the equivalent of re-upping Mruczkowski or McMichael. Based off the production he got when the coaching staff was finally forced (by injury to LaBoy) to get him on the field more regularly, I'd call that at least for the time being a success signing.

They weren't stars for us, but you'd be hard-pressed to not call McMichael and Manumaleuna successful free agent acquisitions for what we asked of them to do and their ability to deliver it when we asked.

I'm not saying he's had a ton of them, and I'm not saying that he hasn't had his free agent flat out busts (LaBoy, Smith, Sanders, Strickland, Vasher). I'm just saying at least factor in the success instances he has had and don't ignore them as being non-existent.
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The-Beast


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
Barnes' initial signing was a no duh one, necessitated by the fact that our depth at OLB was miserable with English injured and Merriman waived and Tucker injured (and being average-at-best to begin with). His re-signing though wasn't so much no duh. He had some success as a pass-rusher for us, not nearly as much as a run-defender, but he was effectively viewed at the time as little more than decent depth who already knew the system.
Which means for the contract he accepted it was a no duh signing.
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
The-Beast wrote:
The LBC wrote:
We have had one successful one over the same time period Burnett.

The problem I have with most of our signings is either they completely suck (Spikes, Laboy) or they're no duh signings (Gaither, Barnes).

I would put Tommie Harris in the successful ones if he has a similar season next year.


Barnes' initial signing was a no duh one, necessitated by the fact that our depth at OLB was miserable with English injured and Merriman waived and Tucker injured (and being average-at-best to begin with). His re-signing though wasn't so much no duh. He had some success as a pass-rusher for us, not nearly as much as a run-defender, but he was effectively viewed at the time as little more than decent depth who already knew the system - at that point he was the equivalent of re-upping Mruczkowski or McMichael. Based off the production he got when the coaching staff was finally forced (by injury to LaBoy) to get him on the field more regularly, I'd call that at least for the time being a success signing.

They weren't stars for us, but you'd be hard-pressed to not call McMichael and Manumaleuna successful free agent acquisitions for what we asked of them to do and their ability to deliver it when we asked.

I'm not saying he's had a ton of them, and I'm not saying that he hasn't had his free agent flat out busts (LaBoy, Smith, Sanders, Strickland, Vasher). I'm just saying at least factor in the success instances he has had and don't ignore them as being non-existent.


Yah, i'm just a bit annoyed that he doesn't take any risks in FA's at all. All of his signings are for near minimum payment. There's no guy's he's ever gone out and signed for more than 2 years (Spikes was for 3, but i dont think he gets there). I understand that we've had guys that we're gonna have to lock up, and we're going to have that every year (Hardwick etc this year) but that doesn't mean that we should just abandon signing decent FA's. But i guess we've gone after those types of guys that i mentioned before.

And according to Dean, he says that he's going to change AJ as a GM, basically saying that he was going to be more open, and said "He needs to improve in that area and he is going to".

But what do you think about those signings LBC? Those are ones that i would think of AJ-like signings, that could have a big impact on this team.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
The LBC wrote:
The-Beast wrote:
The LBC wrote:
We have had one successful one over the same time period Burnett.

The problem I have with most of our signings is either they completely suck (Spikes, Laboy) or they're no duh signings (Gaither, Barnes).

I would put Tommie Harris in the successful ones if he has a similar season next year.


Barnes' initial signing was a no duh one, necessitated by the fact that our depth at OLB was miserable with English injured and Merriman waived and Tucker injured (and being average-at-best to begin with). His re-signing though wasn't so much no duh. He had some success as a pass-rusher for us, not nearly as much as a run-defender, but he was effectively viewed at the time as little more than decent depth who already knew the system - at that point he was the equivalent of re-upping Mruczkowski or McMichael. Based off the production he got when the coaching staff was finally forced (by injury to LaBoy) to get him on the field more regularly, I'd call that at least for the time being a success signing.

They weren't stars for us, but you'd be hard-pressed to not call McMichael and Manumaleuna successful free agent acquisitions for what we asked of them to do and their ability to deliver it when we asked.

I'm not saying he's had a ton of them, and I'm not saying that he hasn't had his free agent flat out busts (LaBoy, Smith, Sanders, Strickland, Vasher). I'm just saying at least factor in the success instances he has had and don't ignore them as being non-existent.


Yah, i'm just a bit annoyed that he doesn't take any risks in FA's at all. All of his signings are for near minimum payment. There's no guy's he's ever gone out and signed for more than 2 years (Spikes was for 3, but i dont think he gets there). I understand that we've had guys that we're gonna have to lock up, and we're going to have that every year (Hardwick etc this year) but that doesn't mean that we should just abandon signing decent FA's. But i guess we've gone after those types of guys that i mentioned before.

And according to Dean, he says that he's going to change AJ as a GM, basically saying that he was going to be more open, and said "He needs to improve in that area and he is going to".

But what do you think about those signings LBC? Those are ones that i would think of AJ-like signings, that could have a big impact on this team.


But again I'd ask, based off of what anyone had seen what players were there that were worth 3+ year contracts? I can't fault the guy for giving speculative contracts to speculative players or short contracts to older veteran players (I'm pretty sure these are practices that among his GM peers earn him a lot of praise, actually). The guys that get the mega deals are (for the most part) the guys that deserve the mega-deals and are young enough to realistically play out those deals. AJ could be giving out the 5 or 6 year deals, which are really just 2-3 year deals with team options for some excessive amount in the 3 or 4th year, that some other teams are giving out, but we're effectively looking at the same contract (it just doesn't "look" as impressive to the fan-base).

And no one's saying that we should - or that he does - abandon signing FA's. He does what most of the build through the draft teams have done: Put priority on re-signing your own FA's that you want back and extending those who are soon coming up and deserving, then look to flesh out where you can from the remaining FA market. Again - short of a Posluszny, Peppers, Antonio Smith, or Jammal Brown (who was looking for the same franchise LOT money that McNeill was with similar medical concerns) - I haven't seen a free agent that's hit the market that you could contend we needed THAT badly to go throwing massive contract numbers out at him - even if it was our style. And even with regard to Posluszny I would argue that retaining Weddle was and should have been a higher priority than signing Poz.

AJ's not a guy whose strategy is to go out and fill a long-term starter position through free agency. It's one of the few things that didn't rub off from John Butler on him (though with Butler it was almost a matter of necessity because the roster he inherited was YEESH!). He'll sign a stop-gap to hold the spot for a guy he drafts while he's developed by the coaching staff (hence the short contracts, since rookies are typically expected to be ready for judgment in the third year). Problem is our coaching staff is very much hit and miss in developing guys (and some of the guys that AJ's given them weren't the best he could have for guys that could have been developed that were available - it's a two-way street).

This isn't an uncommon approach to fielding a team across the league - Pittsburgh does it, Green Bay does it, by and large Houston does it, Baltimore does it, just to name a few - most of those teams just happen to be better at identifying and developing those young prospects than we have. That part is on AJ and is on Norv (since Norv's responsible for assembling the coaching staff that he has and for them executing the jobs they're supposed to be doing).
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kramxel


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, can't say I'm surprised...

The whole Dean talk after the Raiders game was pretty telling.

Truth be told, and I've said it several times, when we are rolling, AJ and Norv look good....

I think we'll need one heck of an offseason to be able to compete.
Our defense needs some vital components, and I'm not even considering Mannusky is retained. He is even worse than Fat Ted! And that's saying a LOT!

Invest some picks/money in our D, resign some key players, tidy up on the coaching staff, and we can be in a good position.


But like I said, we'll be needing one heck of an offseason, another debacle by AJ and it's all over.
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AntonioGates


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ probably got a little slack because a few of his draft picks are looking better than they did a year ago.

Ryan Mathews has emerged as a potential premier running back.
Cam Thomas, Tyronne Green and Vaughn Martin all finally got some playing time, and all look like they could be good starters given more polish.
Donald Butler looks like he will be a legit stud at ILB.

Then his big offseason move of resigning Eric Weddle proved to be smart as he had his best year and is the centerpiece of this defense.

If the class of Luiget, Mouton, Gilchrist, and Brown has a solid impact on the team next year and maybe get a day 1 starter at RT as well as an impact defensive player in the draft, AJ can be redeemed.
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We'll see how this off season goes but if AJ doesn't find a miracle way to shore up our defense and resign key components like VJ and Gaither then I see yet another football season that I will enter with a resigned sense of defeat.

I'd really like us to try to go after Finnegan in the off season and a DC that will finally play the press man scheme that we have the personnel for.
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EverythingSF wrote:
But I do feel Alex is better than Rivers and we may as well not even argue over it here because I am pretty sure neither will change the others mind.
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Stone85


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hell no to finnegan.
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