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Study on pass rushing 3-4 OLBs: 3-Cone Drill; Vert and Broad
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JaguarCrazy2832


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is incredible. Excellent study there. If Jacksonville ran a 3-4 D I'd look back on this alot when evaluating guys
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Did he do good on the homework and quizzes but choke on the tests?
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2006 wrote:
I wonder how players like Jason Taylor, James Harrison, and LaMarr Woodley would stack up when looking at these numbers?

Edit : or Terrell Suggs, Jerry Porter, or Elvis Dumervil when looking at combine numbers.


Porter had a 39" vert and a 10'04" Broad, he would fit that section his 7.37 3 Cone is not that good.

I cannot find number on Doom or Suggs right now.

Just looking back through some random drafts...In 2007;

Quincy Black, now playing some LB for the Bucs, at 6-2 240 he ran a 4.42 forty, but more importantly for this thread, he jumped 41.5" in the Vert and 10'04" in the Broad along with a 6.86 in the 3 cone. He has ended up in 43 defense, but it would be an interesting proposition.

One of the best coverage LB's in the NFL right now, Ben Leber...He cranked out a 6.75 3 cone drill.

If you want to check the numbers posted by a 6-1 242 pound LB from Northwestern named Kevin Bentley.

From last year both Thad Gibson and Jason Worilds posted sub 7 3 cone drills.

I think leaving it to explosion or agility is not the best way to look at it. You need to have a combo of both to be really successful at both coverage and pass rushing aspects of the game.
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post khodder... I do agree that having it cut or dry between explosion and agility leaves a little room for improvement, which is why I'm going to try and create a 3rd section that incorperate both.

With that being said you have players who excel with either or, but not both and are still extremely successful (see: Joey Porter, Brian Orakpo, Shaun Phillips).

This study pertains to singling out what stats correlate with becoming a good-great pass rusher, not an all around OLB or cover OLB since the pass rushing skill is much more difficult to find.


Last edited by BlaZeN37 on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Waldo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therein lies the problem.

When you expand the dataset to encompass whole drafts (face it, good measuables are not a 1st-2nd round phenomenon), some of these trends lose their strong correlation.

The one trend that is true when it comes to measurbles, for each position it is not that hard to define "good" and "bad" especially when you've got a spreadsheet with LOTS of data, several drafts worth (some drafts are unusualy good or bad at particular #'s, the '09 NT's were unusually good at running and a poor representation in general of the position for example). Those players that across the board "good" ratings or "average" ratings tend to become good football players. Even lacking in a single drill increases the bust rate drastically.

For example, all of the OLB's with bad shuttle times. Especially if they ran fast (one would expect a slower shuttle for someone who runs slower). These guys almost always lack the quick twitch to their game.

But you always have to keep in mind, for all players their #'s are solely a function of their size. A 280 lb player that jumps 35" is significantly more explosive than a 230 lb player that jumps 36".

With pass rushers, and really all positions, the key with numbers though is what set of numbers will BEAT the man on the other side of the line. What #'s does it take to get by a pro left tackle?
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
If you want to check the numbers posted by a 6-1 242 pound LB from Northwestern named Kevin Bentley.



Kevin Bentley: 6.71 3-cone drill; 3.83 shuttle time; 39'' vert; 10'00'' broad jump
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaZeN37 wrote:
khodder wrote:
If you want to check the numbers posted by a 6-1 242 pound LB from Northwestern named Kevin Bentley.



Kevin Bentley: 6.71 3-cone drill; 3.83 shuttle time; 39'' vert; 10'00'' broad jump


My point exactly, he has 1 career sack. Times and Tests are never perfect Wink
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
My point exactly, he has 1 career sack. Times and Tests are never perfect Wink



I don't understand why your are incorperating 4-3 players or inside linebackers. I made this study specifically for 3-4 OLBs and how there 3-cone, vert, and broad correlate to PASS RUSHING success. When you start introducing any linebacker on any kind of defense, of course the study is going to get muddled.
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mounimonster


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What were Brooks Reeds numbers? What section would he fall under?

How about Robert Quinn?
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mounimonster wrote:
What were Brooks Reeds numbers? What section would he fall under?

How about Robert Quinn?



Neither of them fit into either section of the criteria...


Brooks Reed: 7.11 3-cone time; 30.5'' vert; 09'05'' broad jump

Robert Quinn: 7.13 3-cone time; 34'' vert; 09'08'' broad jump


I was actually suprised with Reed's 3-cone time, that along with his decent shuttle time of 4.28 leads me to believe he will be fine standing up in the 3-4.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaZeN37 wrote:
khodder wrote:
My point exactly, he has 1 career sack. Times and Tests are never perfect Wink



I don't understand why your are incorperating 4-3 players or inside linebackers. I made this study specifically for 3-4 OLBs and how there 3-cone, vert, and broad correlate to PASS RUSHING success. When you start introducing any linebacker on any kind of defense, of course the study is going to get muddled.


You can still blitz plenty out of a 43 defense. A guy with that many years in the league and 1 sack can pretty easily be deemed a below average pass rusher.
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
You can still blitz plenty out of a 43 defense. A guy with that many years in the league and 1 sack can pretty easily be deemed a below average pass rusher.


Yes, but it's not the same thing. Normally to be an effective 3-4 pass rushing OLB you need to have the size (6-3+ & 250+) to go along with the agility in the 3-cone drill. Its much diffrent for a 6'4 and 260 OLB to run the 3-cone under 7 seconds then it is for a 6'0 and 230 linebacker.

Same thing applies to the jumping drills and section B of the criteria. For a 6'4 and 260 pound LB to jump a vert of 39''+ and a broad of 10'00''+ shows much more explosion then the same jumping numbers from a 6'0 and 230 pound LB.
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jason96r


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good job and nice study. Though I'm a Lions fan this interests me because the Lions use their DE's in the 9 technique which is somewhat like where a rush OLB would be but with their hand down.

Personally, I think the 10 yard split is pretty important along with the other numbers listed. The 10 yard for passrushers and lineman can help to display explosion.

As far passrushers go since they often go against larger players perhaps the benchpress should have some factor too.

What's really impressive is that JJ Watt at 290lbs meets all the factors listed other than the vertical leap. Though perhaps a 290lb person with a vert of 37" may just be more explosive than a 250lb player with a 39" vert.
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jason96r wrote:
Good job and nice study. Though I'm a Lions fan this interests me because the Lions use their DE's in the 9 technique which is somewhat like where a rush OLB would be but with their hand down.

Personally, I think the 10 yard split is pretty important along with the other numbers listed. The 10 yard for passrushers and lineman can help to display explosion.

As far passrushers go since they often go against larger players perhaps the benchpress should have some factor too.

What's really impressive is that JJ Watt at 290lbs meets all the factors listed other than the vertical leap. Though perhaps a 290lb person with a vert of 37" may just be more explosive than a 250lb player with a 39" vert.



To be honest with you, I personally feel that the ten yard split and bench press mean very little towards projecting a prospect ability at the next level (unless they have a GREAT ten yard split/bench press or a HORRIBLE one). Mainly because the bench press is a better representative of the time a player has spent in the weight room rather then there actual football strength. For the ten yard split, it's shows more of a players abiltiy to come out of a track stance over anything else.
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sherm


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaZeN37 wrote:
mounimonster wrote:
What were Brooks Reeds numbers? What section would he fall under?

How about Robert Quinn?



Neither of them fit into either section of the criteria...


Brooks Reed: 7.11 3-cone time; 30.5'' vert; 09'05'' broad jump

Robert Quinn: 7.13 3-cone time; 34'' vert; 09'08'' broad jump


I was actually suprised with Reed's 3-cone time, that along with his decent shuttle time of 4.28 leads me to believe he will be fine standing up in the 3-4.
that doesnt surprise me...I'm not as high on Reed as everyone else is. I see more Anthony Spencer than I do Clay 2.0. Quinn had very good numbers for a DE. I think he will be wasted in a 34.
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BlaZeN37


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sherm wrote:
that doesnt surprise me...I'm not as high on Reed as everyone else is. I see more Anthony Spencer than I do Clay 2.0. Quinn had very good numbers for a DE. I think he will be wasted in a 34.



Agree 100% on Reed, but I think Quinn is such a great athlete that he could very good in the 3-4.

Aldon Smith is someone who I'm starting to think will be a great 4-3 DE but won't be very effective in the 3-4 as an OLB.
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